Defense Numbers and Rankings, and a Question

I just spent some time on DC training mode figuring this out because I’ve heard a lot of conflicting stuff about it. Here are the damage numbers on two different combos. And for kicks, I checked it out for everyone.

Ryu’s jumping roundhouse, crouching fierce, roundhouse hurricane kick.

Q: regular - 50; 1 taunt - 43; 2 taunts - 37; 3 taunts - 31
Hugo: regular - 46; 1 taunt - 43; 2 taunts - 40; 3 taunts - 37; 4 taunts - 34
Alex: 50
Urien: 50
Makoto: 53
Ken: 53
Dudley: 53
Ryu: 53
Sean: 55
Elena: 56
Chun: 56
Oro: 56
Necro: 56
Remy: 56
Twelve: 59
Yun: 59
Yang: 59
Ibuki: 62
Akuma: 65

This didn’t seem like enough damage to really make a separation between the characters, so I did a more damaging combo.

Q’s jumping fierce, close standing forward, SAII, fierce dash punch

Q: regular - 93; 1 taunt - 76; 2 taunts - 65; 3 taunts - 54
Hugo: regular - 86; 1 taunt - 80; 2 taunts - 74; 3 taunts - 69; 4 taunts - 63
Alex: 93
Urien: 93
Makoto: 99
Ken: 99
Dudley: 99
Ryu: 99
Sean: 101
Elena: 102
Chun: 102
Oro: 102
Necro: 106
Remy: 106
Twelve: 107
Yun: 111
Yang: 111
Ibuki: 113
Akuma: 120

Edit: Since I have nothing else to do, I ranked the characters from least damage taken to most damage taken.

Regular (no taunts):

With taunts:

Note that, when Q is fully taunted, Akuma takes well more than twice the damage Q takes. Booya.

But this has all been said before (just thought I would make a dedicated thread for it and put to rest any uncertainties). The reason that I’m making a new thread on this is because some of the numbers seem kinda weird. For example, Elena, Chun, Oro, Necro, and Remy all took 56 damage points from the Ryu combo, but the Q combo gave Necro and Remy four more damage points than Elena, Chun, and Oro. Also, while Twelve takes 3 more damage points than Elena, Chun, Oro, Necro, and Remy from the Ryu combo, he takes only 1 more point than Necro and Remy from the Q combo but 5 more than Elena, Chun, and Oro. That doesn’t make much sense on its own, so I tried to think about why it ended up like that and came up with the idea that maybe different characters not only take damage from all attacks in different amounts, they also take damage from different types of attacks differently. That is, maybe the reason Twelve takes 3 more damage points from the Ryu combo but only 1 more from the Q combo than Necro and Remy is that he takes damage from special, normal, and super attacks differently. Maybe he takes more from normals and specials and less from supers? I don’t know, but I think it would be interesting to find out. Anyone have any ideas?

sticky plz

The reason is 3rd Strike scales damage in a nonlinear fashion, plus there are probably lots of little unknown things that factor into damage determination. You’ll see what I mean when you use two combos that do the same damage with different hits.

Try these combos:

Gill’s Seraphic Wing vs Q =91 pts
Ryu’s jHP, cMK, HP Dragon, Shinsho vs Q =91 pts

Now taunt 3 times as Q and repeat the combos. You’ll see they no longer do equal amounts of damage.

The same combos do 112 and 110 vs Ibuki, respectively. So we see they did the same to Q, until you taunt, then Ryu’s does more, except to Ibuki, then Gill’s does more. This is just one example.

Now look at a big, single hit. I’ll use the first hit of Gouki’s KKZ with a taunt.

vs Q=74
vs Qx3=46
vs Hugo=68
vs Hugox4=35

Q normally has the best defense, but this time Hugo takes the lowest damage.
You might think this means Hugo takes less damage from the first hit, or big hits. Yet Oro’s Kishin Tsui and Ibuki’s Super Radia do more to Hugox4 than to Qx3.

When you factor in crouching opponents, it gets more complicated. I had a huge post on this a month or two ago but decided to delete it until I got more numbers.

sounds like there’s some modifiers… maybe on the # of hits or something.

Well it does make sense. Gill’s seraphic wing deals more hits, so damage scales more rapidly on that. Then, since each single hit gets a reduction itself from Q’s 3*taunt, overall the Seraphic Wing suffers from most of the damage reduction.
I think that defense ratings should be done with single hit hi damaging moves

I wonder if low life affects defense too. I remember that, as I was practicing Ryu’s j.hp x x mk Joudan on Ken (because… well, because fuck Ken), sometimes Ken would take 52 damage while other times he’d take 50 or 51usually when he had low life (not zero life; he takes 36 with zero life for whatever reason).

Characters take less damage at the end of their life. I think this has been in other SF games. In 3rd Strike, when the bar turns orange, your defense increases.

If this were true, Seraphic Wing would never deal more damage than the combo I listed. Yet it does, to Ibuki at least.
Probably this is an issue that has to do with rounding numbers that shows up in Ibuki because her defense sucks. Anyway, the combo that does less hits does less damage in that instance.

We can’t just say we’d like to use big move x. For one thing, most of the damage in a real fight is not going to come from single, big damage attacks.

The defense “tiers” that have been known since 1999 are correct, there’s no question about that. It’s simply a bit more complicated because some moves don’t follow the rules.

You’re forgetting that supers, specials, and normals are subjected to damage scaling as well. So Gill’s Seraphic Wing is 20 hits from a super, whereas Ryu’s Shinsho combo is 2 hits from normals, 1 hit from a special, and 4 hits from a super. The only way you could find consistant defense bonus boosts would be if you found 2 combos that do the exact same amount of damage from the same types & number of hits.

On a random thought, 3s has different invincibility for certain things, right? ie. Chun’s SA2 has invincibility towards fireballs, but not to normals, etc. Maybe this runs true with defense as well?

I didn’t forget that at all. I didn’t consider it because every single move in this game that hits more than one time scales its own damage. Therefore it doesn’t matter what “type” (an arbitrary distinction made by the player, not the game) of move is used.

The reason Gill’s combo did more like that is probably due to rounding numbers. Still doesn’t explain the single hit move problems, though.

I’m pretty sure the thing with Chun’s SAII is that it ducks under mid/high attacks, including fireballs. It beats UOH, Q’s far standing forward, and Q’s back+strong, but Q’s standing short and crouching forward beat it every time.

I always figured it was invincible until she stops moving towards you… FBs can hit her if they’re close enough to the character throwing it.

Maybe it’s both? Meh. I dunno.

its invincible but if you’re close and you’re already doing whatever youll hit or throw it doesn’t beat the fireball its going through them

Nope, I beat Chun’s SAII when scrub Chuns who like to random super with a simple standing short. Like I’ll be doing some poke chain like s short s short or standing forward standing short, and they’ll try to super through it, but the standing short beats it every time, even at point blank range. The “ducking” or whatever is only at the beginning of the super though, you can hit her with a fireball if she activates far away from you. And luckily that totally happens all the time, maybe.

More fun would be you already charging denjin:)

It can get hit by all 3 of those things. The movement happens during the super freeze and I believe that’s what gives her the limited invulnerability.

Does Gill have a higher defense rating than Q with 3 taunts?

Gill’s defense is only a little better than Urien’s.

The defense & offensive power increases when the life bar is orange also.DA GAME noticed this when he was playing a defensive powered Q against Necro.Necro’s power was about the same range as Q defense after 3 taunts,he had the lifebar @ half off of a bullshit Roundhouse chain.

? :wtf: ?

DA GAME was referring to CPU Necro’s Back+Roundhouse twice.Only the CPU is capable of doing stuff like this.