Defensive Strategy


#1

Hi.

Well let me break it down for you. When I play 3s the way I see it is either your on offense (attack) or on defense (parrying/blocking/teching). IMO I think I know a good amount about the offensive side to the game (high/low mixup/throwing). But as far as the defensive side goes, I can get raped, espically in the corner. Maybe the people I’m playing just have a good mixup game but I seem to get hit with a lot of attacks, espically throws. Then after getting knocked down by a throw they can obviouslly throw again or go for an attack. So I either get thrown again or I guess to tech a throw and get hit with a super. This is very frusterating for me and I would appericate any advice. I know one of my probelms is that I try to guess at what I do more than react. Like if I’m going to parry I’ll have an educated guess as to what your attack would be but I’m only going to parry attacks about 1/2 the time, if I’m lucky. Can you please provide me with some defensive strats. Thanks again.

Mert


#2

Well many strats would consider what characters you are using, and who you are against. You’ll find talk about wakeup situations for most characters in their threads. When in doubt, just block low. Other than parrying, or beating your opponent to the punch, blocking low covers the most bases. An attack will whiff over your head, a throw will miss, a low attack will be blocked, it’d need be a descending blow of some sort. Of course your comp will start using their descending blows if you always low block, but knowing that, you will be able to more quickly realize when they are beginning to use them on your wakeup, and counter accordingly. Different characters handle offensive pressure differently.

Like for example with Ken I find peppering fierce shoryus into your wake up game can help, not all the time mind you, but often a person will eat the later hits especially, and it beats or trades with a lot of stuff. Of course, this is assuming they haven’t got you figured out and just back off you when you get up.

Also if you just get destroyed in the corner, until you get a better wake up game for your character, make sure not to retreat into the corner. Make them have to force you in there, I’ve seen many players give up ground and get stuck in corners when a well place throw, or dash would have easily allowed them to keep position away from corner.


#3

I get kinda edgy when I see some random notations for moves/move-sets that have already been defined a certain way.

Descending Blows should be Overheads. The basis for defense starts with what’s most basic. In 3S, I wouldn’t define it as either you’re on offense or you’re on defense. If you’re on defense, you’re losing.

Keep the train of thought in that you’re either on offense or trying to get on offense, because a great defense is much harder than a great offense and doesn’t really get you anywhere depending on your character. The best advice for you is to stop parry guessing. It’s important to learn parrying down the road, but it’s not what you do first. Learn to block properly before you try to parry, because if you can predict when to parry high/low - parrying won’t be that big of a change and blocking is much safer than guessing 50/50 and eating a fat combo.

Not to take away from Overworld, but I really suggest not following his advice as honestly, it doesn’t really help you at all, rather it’d probably get you killed even more and a lot of it is just rubbish.

Right now as a suggestion or advice to up your defensive game? Learn to BLOCK. That’s it, parry if you KNOW what will come, but anything less than 90% just block. Learning how to block is very important and Overworld’s one suggestion I can agree with is block low as soon as you hit the ground (and learn to quick stand by tapping down when you’re about to hit the ground… kinda like parrying the… uh ground). After a quick stand always go into block position and watch for overhead attacks. If the opponent goes off the ground at all, switch to a standing block, otherwise you’ll have to learn your opponent’s moves to watch for what can be called standing overheads. Don’t get too frantic and even though the corner is a bad position for you to be, it will inevitably happen and the best thing to do isn’t to get frantic and try to escape from it and put yourself into a more vulnerable state. Learn the throw distance and trade spots out. If your character has ways of travelling across the screen, use it to get out (ex. Urien’s RH Knee, Twelve’s Air Dash/Ex Air Dive, etc).

If you have any other specific problems such as getting thrown repeatedly or something, just post again.


#4

To each their own, everyone has to go out there at the end of the day and play for themselves, and see what works for them, just sharing stuff I’ve seen/done. (More a Dudley player myself.)

As for the notation, sorry, it’s just what a lot of people round here tend to call it, and I can understand how different nomenclature can confuse things, I’ll make sure to rectify it next time.


#5

It’s best to share and converge information gainned from personal experience rather than watching since you never know who could be playing. You Ken example is pretty much what a Ken player would do if they want to be killed by anybody half decent. As I mentioned in another thread, random wake up DP is like asking your opponent to end your life. It works at the level where people telegraph wake-ups that forces them into a commited situation that cannot get themselves out of.

Telling someone to STAY OUT OF THE CORNER doesn’t do any good if you don’t explain how and Mert was not specific enough to merit a good answer either way. Pretty much it’s stuff you know and you want to do, but you don’t know how so it ends up as being rather pointless and useless even if mentioned because it doesn’t help. The Ken example was pointless because you aren’t a Ken player and don’t know that getting your DP parried on wake up means you’re eating a fat combo and you’ll learn not to do it again the hard way.


#6

Eh, I think you are taking me out of context, I’m not meaning it should be your standard random flair, I’m saying for Kens wake ups, it’s often a very good option. Random wake up anything is stupid. I’m saying if you want to work on his wake up game, it’s a good move to use, I don’t think I ever said anything about using it randomly. Thanks for advising me on how to share an opinion though. Besides, you can take information from what you see, it’s the whole way Mert is going to get anything out of this. If he can visualize what people tell him to try, then maybe it’ll work for him. Is all.

I said try not to retreat in the corner, I have played people who have trouble when cornered and often they lose position because they gave up too much ground. As for the Ken stuff, I play Ken, but my best is Dudley. I am also not of the opinion about wake up selection alone:

http://mopreme.livejournal.com/1433.html

Aaaanyhow, thanks for…um, telling me how my opinion should have went, I don’t know where I would have been without you Xiii. It was very informative, I hope all future posts I make are up to your high quality standards. If you don’t think my opinion is valid, it’s cool, just say so, no need to drag this out though.(I’ve been nothing but curt to this point.)

Mert, I’m sure you get this, but just for all else involved who like to hash out the quality of people’s opinions on what you should do, here’s the short and sweet:

  1. Just play more, the more you get into those situations the easier it’ll be to break them down in the future.
  2. Work on your wakeup game, when you’re cornered that’s what’ll get you out. Be it a throw, or a move (we won’t say which you may try, as not to upset some). Of course any move suggestions doesn’t mean use it randomly, but I’m sure you haven’t jumped to such conclusions. Find something that works for you, your character and the situation, there’s no one fix, but you’ll find there are always options in any situation.
  3. Work on positioning, many time I see less seasoned players get cornered not because they were forced in, but because they give up too much ground. (Unless your running from Yun, then good luck to ye sir.)

#7

If this…

…is what will help people then go ahead, I won’t try to help anybody you feel like sharing your reading experience with. I’m a scrub, ignore my posts because I think you give shitty advice.


#8

I am very well aware what you think of my advice. You seem very intent on going on about it. What do you want me to do? Give you a cookie? Tell you that I am horribly mistaken, that you have vast amounts of knowledge I do not, and retract my whole statement? My first born? Some blood perhaps? Some points for your e-penis? Maybe a high horse? If this was a issue of fact, (such as me stating Ken is a woman) you’d have somewhat reasonable reason for arguing with me, but as it’s a matter of opinion, really, I’m allowed to have it, regardless if it is any more less valid than yours. If you think my opinion is invalid, that is worth adding to the discussion, but to go further on, only serves to…um…what? Make you feel better? Sorry, but I’m really not sure what you expect, nor what you’re trying to get out of me. If you want to share your thoughts on my advice, as I said, have a ball, just don’t drone on and on about it, Mert is the one who should get your attention, not me. (As much as I love our time together.) Sorry to derail your thread Mert.

Look I shared the link not because it’s something I read and thought “ooh uber tactics”, I shared because I was trying to illustrate that I wasn’t the only person in the world to have had the thought. (The fact that you disparage learning from reading in a forum thread directed at advising someone is so entirely contridictary I’m now questioning your sanity.)

With that, I’m done, and again I apologize Mert, I had not known that my advice would become the topic of conversation.

If anyone else feels like telling me how much I suck, please just PM me, I’ve got plenty of space, and it’ll save Mert the trouble of sifting through.


#9

Does anyone from Toronto know who that guy is?


#10

Nobody that is active on this forum knows me because I play at York Lanes more often than Orbits just because I live in Downsview.


#11

ignoring most of the things in this thread, I’ll respond directly to Mert.

Alot of this depends on the character you’re using, but I’ll cover the basics.

As said previously, if you’re on defense, you’re trying to get back on offense. And getting back on offense requires one to be patient. And if you’re mostly guessing, like you’ve admitted to doing, you’re not being patient. Throwing out random attacks trying to get your opponent out of your face is just as bad as trying to parry everything they throw at you.

Just sounds like you need to be more observant to me.


#12

Yeah this thread got a little off topic and I’d appericate it if you contiuned your quarrel elsewhere. Besides that, thanks for the advice, I normally play as Ken (at least in serious matches) or Twelve (whom I rarley parry with) so this is more directed tword Ken really. Any more advice is greatly appericated.


#13

Based on experience:

Ken is about the only character I use in all-out matches. RH-Hurricane Kick to escape a corner after using footsies to push them back or punishing a jump. It works wonders.

Those are ways to run away from the corner. But if you can, just back throw them into the corner and keep them there.

If I’m trying to get someone out of my face (Makoto being the best example) I’ll footsie.

lk x2 pushes them back a decent distance and interupts the startup for alot of attacks. And better yet, if you have a Shippu stocked, cancel into that shit. If lk x2 is blocked, dash-in and start a mix-up.

He has a great amount of anti-airs. Obviously you want to land HP SRK as much as you can, but realisically, you can’t use that version of it often because it’s the most risky. To punish jump-ins, I usually LP SRK at the last second. Most people I’ve played haven’t been able to parry that becuase they’ll usually stick an attack out at the last second.

IF they’re able to consistantly parry that, however, I’ll do one of two things depending on the situation:

Parry, they land, walk up, throw.

Or, if I discover that they jumped in expecting to parry an anit-air, I simply throw them when they land.

S. MK works as an anti-air as well, but it’s not too reliable. Agianst Dudley, I use s. LP as an anti-air. If he parries, throw s. LP again. Sure, he could parry the second LP, but now you’re controlling his pace.

Ok, wake-up situations. EX-Shoryuken on wake-up is common knowledge so I often play people that will try and bait it out. So, instead of using that on wake-up, I simply get up and throw them :slight_smile: Pisses alot of people off.

As far as using Shippu for defense goes…

If you see your opponent about to attack you from a “safe” distance on wake-up, activate shippu. Also, you can punish most whiffed attacks with it.

Well, there’s my two cents. I don’t play twelve, so I can’t help you there.


#14

Thanks for everything, even though I already knewmost of it, but I just can’t actually do it. I’ll start praticing most of that stuff more in casuals.

About that quote, I HATE THROWS ON WAKEUP haha. It pisses me off more than anything. So I guess I’ll do it more. The thing is that if they are anticipating a throw they can just dash back, watch the throw whiff then punish. It’s happened before, just don’t make it a habbit to throw on wakeup, or do any moves on wakeup.


#15

Based on your first post, yeah, it just seems like you need to work on your observation and choices. Just block more and be patient. Alot of the times, waiting a few seconds to react is the best thing you can do.

Just to have alot options open to you: Another useful way for Ken to get out of the corner is c. MK x MK hurricane. Forgot to mention that last time.


#16

I think it takes time and an understanding of zoning and how to zone offensively and defensively. You can try to position yourself defensively so that they are wiffing attacks or offensively where you are trying to land one of your pokes. You also need to develope a sense of what your opponent has available to them at a given range and respond accordingly.

In the corner, block low. It really helps to be knowledgable of the matchup you are playing, and you also want to try to learn something (anything) about the opponent you are playing that might help you out. You really need to have a reason for everything you do. 3S really isn’t as simple as getting in your opponent’s face and mixing up (unless you just activated GJ cough). So in short, you’ll get a feel for the subtle (or not so subtle) transitions from offense and defense just by playing. Also, don’t do anything stupid or random.

I guess this isn’t terribly good advice. Ah well.


#17

With Twelve, just… block. I’ll usually block low, then quickly use a cr.LK, cr.LK, cr.MK blockstring after to make some space (and if you really want to the space, tag on a fierce kick/EX NDL after). If you’re in the corner, use an EX dive to get out. Ideally, you should look to use an EX dive before you get pushed into the corner anyway. You probably know that already though. And if your opponent is really in your face, block low then use a tiger knee EX dive. That cuts through most pokes and knocks down.
A lot of it depends on the opponent you’re facing but I tend to block low and look for the overhead rather than vice versa, simply because overheads come out slower and are easier to react to.

I don’t know shit about Ken but what I do know is with shotos, if you’re going to try and tech-throw, use option-select (down + LP + LK) and use it to hit confirm into super. Not something to be abused but definitely something to keep in mind. And don’t think that playing as Ken is a god given right to be all out offense, even on your wake-up. There’s no shame in being patient and waiting for an opening. There is plenty o’ shame in a blocked wake-up SRK though.


#18

block low and look for throws. you avoid alot of damage vs offense happy players this way in general. just use your head. try not to mash on throw very often because it gets you killed against good players.


#19

Forgive me if it’s been mentioned before (I only skimmed most of the posts) but you can try option selecting on wakeup. That is, parry low without going back to neutral (gives less parry frames though) then right away press lp+lk while still holding down. This will stop throws and low parryable attacks and that is 2/3’rds of their offensive options right there (assuming they attack you asap). I think option selecting has fallen out of favor with a lot of players because I don’t see it all that much. Either that or it was never that popular to begin with.

Besides option selects all I can tell you is that if you’re gonna parry, make sure you CAN and DO punish big. All too often do I see people taking the risk of parrying and then throwing. If you’re gonna commit to something random, go all out. I’ll leave it at that, cus I think I might upset someone lol

EDIT:
also, the reason why against most characters you don’t want to throw right as you get up is because they have low hitting options that do way more damage than your silly throw. So unless they have no meter to speak of, don’t risk it. Also, countering wake-up throws is a popular passtime among many players. Which brings up something interesting I’d like to add. If someone is jiggling outside your throw range possibly looking for a kara-throw/?/? mixup then you CAN consider just waking up with a low short into something else, cus people that jiggle more often than not do not block low after doing so (probably cus it’s not part of the mixup mentality) and since they have to wait a few frames before the game lets them throw you, you have time to get that low short to land. ramble ramble

EDIT2:
I see Mikee beat me to the punch


#20

mark or one of the articles here at srk once said this.
you can tech a grab within the first 3 frames of being grabbed. you can tech at the same time or late tech from neutral, but you can only late tech from crouching.