Defensive style characters


#1

What are third strikes defensive type characters? Hugo, elena, chun, any others?


#2

Oro is one of the most defensive characters in 3S.


#3

i think dat ibuki has a say into dis category, cause i played 3S and she got on my nerves wit da blockin, but i say dat akuma has it downpacked!!! he blocks till he sees an opening, den dogs u out like it aint nothin 2 it.


#4

dat Q


#5

Oro, Chun, Q, Hugo, and Remy some into mind as the characters that should be played on a defensive level.

Alot of characters play a very defensive game untill the opening/positioning appears. Characters like Urien, Akuma, Elena, Yun, and Dudley.


#6

I don’t understand why everyone is saying Hugo. I think you’re confusing the fact that every character plays defensive against him for him being defensive. Or confusing the fact that he’s slow for being defensive. Hugo is always moving toward the opponent; he wants to be on top of them as much as possible. His opponent wants him as far away as possible. I don’t see how you can call Hugo defensive.

Q is obviously the most defensive. Everyone is forced to come to him.
Chun is usually played defensively because she’s happy to play a (superior) poking game.

Other then that, the other characters are borderline defensive. Some might play defensive for a bit, until they have meter or something, and then start their offense, like Yun, Oro, or possibly Elena. Or they might just be defensive in certain matchups, like Oro against Chun, or anybody vs Hugo. Or they might get a lead, and then play a (superior) run away game to force you to come to them, such as Oro, or Twelve.

But still, I think the only characters that are almost always played as “defensive” are Q and Chun.


#7

i think oro is more EVASIVE than defensive just my opinion


#8

Hit the nail right on the head


#9

Chun, Q, Remy, Necro, Hugo, Urien, and Akuma imo

edit: Oro

edit2: Any character can be defensive really…it’s a person’s style that determines their style, not the character. Obviously, certain characters can be considered offensive/defensive, but it’s mainly the person using them. If you wanna take it as “truth is what stands the test of experience” then the true defensive characters in the game are def Akuma, Q, Chun, Remy cause those are the ones that you see turtling/running away in actual top level play. I guess you see some Oro/Urien turtling too, but mainly the 4 I listed imo.


#10

I’m inclined to agree about Hugo. He can’t really break poke strings and pressure terribly well. I think the strategy for most characters is to run away from Hugo because how poorly he handles long range, so I don’t see how people playing defensively against him equates to Hugo being defensive. He can’t really rushdown, but he isn’t exactly camping and outpoking you.


#11

Well, he does have the Q factor.

Info is from UltraDavid…taken from this thread:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=105542&page=4&highlight=taunt


#12

Remy: I forgot Remy in my first post. I would agree that Remy is defensive. He can play a little hit and run, but he almost always wants to be all the way across the screen throwing LoVs.

Urien: Falls under the same category as Yun and Oro (SA3). He’s gonna play defensive/run away until he has meter, and then unload the meter and start again. Questionably/arguably “defensive.”

I don’t know why you don’t see more Hugos taunting when people run away. It might have something to do with when Hugo actually gets the bonus from the taunt. With Q, it’s pretty quick. With Hugo, it might not be until he finishes the entire taunt. If that’s the case, it would be pretty easy to get your free combo without letting him get the boost as well.


#13

Well it depends on your opponent I guess…like if he’s playing super defensive, you could easily get the taunts in. He may not even care… If someone let me get 4 taunts in with Hugo, I’d prolly go offense soon after. Not much to fear when you have 50% more life than the average character. Oh yeah, I remember playing this Oro one day…he played SUPER defensive the whole match, and basically let me get all 4 taunts in. I just traded with him now and then, blocked everything, and won the match by a time over. But next game, he played even more defensively, and it was a pain in the ass to get in on him. Shoulda turtled more…and I think I forgot to taunt that game. Anyway, add Oro to the list of defensive characters. The old man is a little bitch to play against if he chooses to run the whole game.


#14

the taunts are hella slow and give you less defense compared to q. with q its almost worth trading damage for a taunt but with hugo its less so. q also does better than hugo under direct pressure, and can turn being defensive into good offense in a single kara throw.


#15

He speaks the truth^^^^

Hugo wants to be close to 360/720. He doesnt wanna be in a corner why sonic booms and hadoukens are flying at him:annoy:


#16

You can say that for everyone. You can’t do damage PERIOD if you don’t pressure. Not even defensive characters like Remy can do anything if they just lay back throwing LOV’s non-stop. But that’s not how defensive characters work…you’re betting that the opponent will try to rush you, and that’s where Hugo’s good defensive options shine IMO.


#17

This isn’t true at all.

Last time I checked, that’s exactly what Remy wants. No one in the game is going to win a fireball war against him from full screen. If Remy had the option to throw fireballs from full screen all round, I guarantee he would do that, and only that, and win every game. Remy doesn’t want the opponent to rush him, at all.

Chun is the same way. She doesn’t want you to rush her, she wants you go be at c.MK distance at best, and she’s gonna go her best to keep you out, at that range.

As for “defensive options,” I have no idea what you’re talking about. Hugo has defensive options? All he has is guessing/mashing 360s between poke strings. When I think “defensive options” I think defensive karathrows (Q), and 2 frame low jabs (Chun).

Look at it this way. Why would Hugo assume that the other character is going to rush him? What incentive does the other person have to do so? By getting close to him, all you do is risk getting command grabbed. If you knock down Hugo when he has full meter, what incentive is there to attack on his wakeup? If he guesses parry right, or worse, does wakeup SA1, you lose half your life. It’s not a good scenario for you. On the other hand, if you stay in your poke range, and keep him off you with good anti airs, what do you risk from him? s.MP/c.MP? The worst threat is getting knocked down by c.MK. This is much more favorable.

It’s the opposite with Chun. Whether you’re poking, or right in her face, you run the same risk of getting poked into super. With this in mind, if you’re any other character (besides Remy, basically), since you have to face this risk anyway, you prefer to be right in her face, so at least you have your maximum damage potential.

Same with Remy. From across the screen, your damage potential is going to be shit compared to Remy. But moving into poking range, raises your potential slightly (or a lot, depending on the character). Better, moving right into his face raises your damage potential even more, and lowers his (especially depending on his super choice).


#18

I dunno, I WANT people to rush my Remy. I know I won’t win tossing high/low LOV’s. I will do damage off anti-airs, EX LOV’s (which you can’t build without hitting the guy with real combos, and not misparried low LOV’s), throws off dashes, kara throws, etc.

I want people to jumpin and try to dash in on my Chun, too. Too much jumping = b+fierce xx Legs or air throw or double fierce to the face. Dashing in too much = low jab, throw, low forward xx super, or random fierces/b+fierces.

I like people jumpin in on Hugo, eat air grabs all day…no air parrying for you. I admit once they get in on you, it’s hard to get em off you without a bit of guessing, but when it comes to zoning them out and keeping them out, his slaps are quite good at smacking em around. The main thing I meant was that his good stamina + slaps + air grab are good for keeping them out. I didn’t really mean he has anything good to get em off you when they’re in, but that’s like saying Guile in ST isn’t a good defensive character cause he doesn’t have tons of options when you get in on him. That’s not the point, he has tons of options to keep you AWAY from him. That’s also defensive.

I agree in theory, but theory and practice don’t exactly meet that often in SF. I’ve seen Hugo rushed down plenty of times in high level vids. Not like hardcore, in your face, non stop rushdown, but enough pressure to dismiss this “OMG OMG keep away!!” mentality that works in theory. If you DON’T pressure him, then he’s going to come to you, and good Hugo players are usually good at parrying, too. My 2 cents on the Hugo issue.

I dunno about this, you say keep away from Hugo but get in on Chun, but I say get in on Hugo, and stay away from Chun, cause once Chun throws you or whatever you’re in more trouble than if Hugo does. Getting close to Chun is pretty bad. I don’t think Chun is a good example honestly, cause she’s strong close and far.

I dunno about this, I don’t agree. Remy is shit from far away. It’s not his long range damage that is bad, cause he doesn’t do any damage with fireball wars. His LOV’s are good cause it frustrates people into doing stupid shit to get in on him cause they know he can’t deal with pressure well or at least that’s what they think. So they die TRYING to get in (if Remy’s lucky), not to his long range game. And I think Remy is pretty OK upclose honestly. Nothing amazing, but I don’t think anyone is amazing or anything upclose.


#19

You’re confusing someone getting to you with them already being on top of you. Pretty much every character in the game likes when someone jumps at them when you’re ready to anti air them, it’s irrelevant. This discussion is about the ranges characters want to be at, in optimal conditions.

It has a lot to do with specific match ups, but we’re talking the few characters who are in basically the same situations no matter what match up they’re in.

Saying that in practice, Remy, doesn’t do any damage throwing LoVs all day is meaningless. The bottom line is, he has a higher damage potential then anyone else from all the way across the screen. That’s it. Because of this, his chances are winning are at their highest in this situation. Even if he does 1 damage, it’s still better then the opponent doing 0. So if he can keep doing 1 damage all day, while the opponent is doing 0, he’s going to do that as much as possible.

The fact that because of the LoVs you get lots of successful anti-airs is also a misconception of effectiveness. It’s not about the damage, it’s about the risk and reward.

Let’s say throwing LoVs from across the screen has 0 risk (which is basically does), but has a damage potential of 1. Now, when you anti air someone, let’s say the damage potential is 20. The problem is, when someone jumps in, you have a risk of taking damage, albeit a somewhat small one. But however small, it’s more then 0, which is enough to make the LoVs the better choice. Dividing the potential damage output by the potential damage taken (risk vs reward), you wind up with a better ratio from the LoVs (infinite in this example – pretty close to infinite in real application).

That whole “you might as well rush him, because if you don’t, he’s gonna get to you anyway” thing is way flawed.

Here’s the bottom line on this one. Would you rather be right up next to Hugo, where he has the potential to grab you, or would you rather be at poking distance where the worst he can do is c.MK? No other discussion, that’s the bottom line.

The best example I can give of this is Kokujin vs Hayao from SBO. Against anyone else, Dudley wants to be in your face for the mixups. But against Hugo, there’s just no need to risk it. He completely dominates Hayao by keeping him away, where Hugo is essentially harmless. The only times Kokujin takes significant damage is when he makes a mistake and lets Hayao get close to him.

Chun is an interesting example because of her karathrow, but it still works. Also, I disagree, I’d much rather be subjected to Chun’s bullshit karathrow wake up game, then Hugos wake up game. With Chun, you can usually submit to being thrown a few times, and eventually let her push herself away when she tries to poke. With Hugo, getting thrown even once can be pretty bad.

But anyway, this talk about wakeup games, is getting off course. We’re talking about being in someones face rather then at poking distance. You said it yourself, “[Chun is] strong close and far.” So if you know you’re facing the same set of risks at either range, wouldn’t you want to put yourself into your own optimal range?

The translation of this into theory/math speak is that your damage risks are constant no matter where you are. So to improve your risk vs reward ratio, since you can’t decrease your risk, the only choice is to increase your reward. With almost every character, that means getting in her face.

The fact that you’re going to take some damage to get in is just part of the deal. You’re sacrificing a flat amount of damage for the chance to improve your risk vs reward ratio.

See first paragraphs.


#20

I dunno man, maybe it’s just me, but I don’t find Hugo scary. What I actually like to do is just stand next to Hugo when he wakes up, and throw him cause he thinks I’ll jump away and kick him in the head. Fighting Remy, I don’t care if I get hit by random LOV’s or if he’s trying to keep me away, cause I’ll get in eventually and make up for what he’s done. I just don’t think that when you have a logically correct action, you won’t have someone defying logic and fuck with you just cause he knows you’re trying to do the “right” thing. That’s just my 2 cents. It’s like that in pretty much any field, unless it’s really indisputable, you can always counter it by countering the expectation.