Define a "impractical" combo for me


#1

I don’t often make topics, but I’ll start with this one.

One of the biggest issues that plague in Marvel 3 is that anything combo deem complex is impractical. MVC3 damaging scaling system is fucked up, and it’s pretty easy to see why simple combos do better damage in some scenarios than harder executed combos. However there has been cases of characters that have damaging combos that require some hard work. For example the TK lighting loop from Zero is consider to be “impractical” by some speculators.

So my main question to you guys is what do you think is “impractical”. Also,It doesn’t have to be simply execution reasons on why a combo is impractical in the MVC3 system either.


#2

I have yet to see a combo in this game besides Hsien Ko’s just frame infinite that I personally would say is impractical.


#3

its subjective… ie viscant might find a combo impractical for himself… but may admit that its practical for others. for me what it really comes down to are the starters and how finnicky a combo is depending on spacing.

for instance anytime i see combo videos starting with stuff other than c.L i want to puke. cause combos requiring jumpins or 3 hits air chained against a grounded opponent to me arent so much impractical… but they certainly have impractical starters.

as far as how hard a combo is i dont really think much is totally impractical… its just how good your execution is and how much time your willing to training mode warior shit down.

things i consider impractical are certain neutral game strategies and and weird /unorthodox combo starters.

mainly its the starters that make combos impractical though.

also there are different levels of impractical ranging from : “no way in hell anybody would ever get hit by that” to “your probably hurting yourself more than helping if your constantly trying for (XX) theory fighter starter even though it can land once in a blue moon”

perfect example of an impractical starter in streetfighter 4 is lvl3 focus unblockables… they can hit once in a blue moon… but pretty stupid to try and base ones game around landing them.

-dime


#4

could be an array of things.

Combo could require a very specific setup that isn’t likely to ever happen in a real match. Like those CvS2 combo videos where rolento throws knifes in the air and then you trade hits with a normal exchange only for the knifes to hit you so that you recover from your hitstun faster (or simply recover from the move faster than you normally would), which would allow you to link into another move that you normally wouldn’t be able to.
[media=youtube]pQLCeIrcYQI[/media]

check about 1:40 in

Could be a very difficult combo to do execution wise that doesn’t have much pay off.

Or simply a combo that you tend to drop a lot so its not practical for you.


#5

Impractical.

Require very strict execution for very little payoff. And/or is very situational (i.e. not working a mjority of the time because, for example, it need the first hit to connect with a character being at exactly 2/3rd of jumping height or some stuff like that.).

for example, you have a reliable 800k BnB with one bar that you can land anywhere from anything short of a throw. BUT you have this awesome just-frame loop that does…802k.

You might want to stick with the reliable BnB :P.


#6

Take the poor sap Dante Solo combo’s case.

His “Long Complex” Combos which does a lot of hits and stylish, when compared to few hard hitting combos, the few hits does more damage due to how high the scaling drops after 25 hits. So in this case, the stylish complex long combo will be less practical than the short combo.

Actual figures: Long combos: Range from 680k to 730ish
The shorter combo: Ranges from 740 to even 810ish.

Of course you can flip this issue and revolve combos on Hard hitting first then try to prelong it as much as possible, but sometimes “Practical Combos” and Impractical combos vary very little with some characters.

If you want a good example of impractical combos, its Magnetos “ABCS BBCS Shockwave”. I do believe it is even negative meter gained (which brings up a new way to look at practical and impractical combos -.- )


#7

Lighting Loops are impractical because they are unnecessary. Why would you need to deal 1 million in 1 combo when Zero can kill easily with simpler, more reliable combos + DHC/THC/lvl 3/X Factor? You’ll spend meters but Zero has no problems building meters anyway. Exposing yourself into unnecessary risks is a problem in causal play but becomes 100X worse in tourneys where the pressure makes people drop even brain dead Wesker combos and when 1 drop combo is enough to get someone kicked out of a tourney. That’s why the best Marvel players all stick to reliable combos that work and stay far away from fancy stuff that gets lesser players blown up.

Just look at what happens when you try to style in tourneys:

[media=youtube]q0-zlg-BZLY[/media]


#8

it’s impractical if it requires a specific set of outrageous parameters beforehand, such as “Grace of Hoggoth glyph at this exact point in the stage”, a specific assist that isn’t conducive to proper team-building, etc. Shuma’s damage was discussed in the tier thread and people were arguing that a certain combo video was impractical because although it did break the 1m mark, it made use of Nemesis’ ground bounce assist and Iron Fist’s wall bounce assist. that’s impractical obviously because the assists were used purely with combo video in mind and not team-building.

basically, to me a combo is impractical not entirely based on your skill level although if it requires you to be Desk/Japanese-level execution to pull off that combo, forget about it because you’re probably nowhere near their level anyway. there are difficult combos with a lot of motions and stuff, but they are just that: difficult combos. no “difficult” combo is out of anyone’s league with constant practice unless you have a case that prevents you from pressing lots of buttons.

if you’re confident in pulling off your fancy but very difficult ToD combo in tournament (an entirely different atmosphere from training mode-- even the best choke and drop basic stuff from time to time) and you have the life lead, I don’t see why not. obviously if you’re not on the verge of winning, stick to the combos you can perform blindfolded. unless you’re Wesker with glasses off, then otherwise ABCS BBCS is all you need pretty much.


#9

See there is thing called practice…maybe you have heard of it. It seems many people that play this game haven’t.


#10

I think that common sense draws the line for impractical, and then we move it based on our execution. Right off the bat, obscure setups that have absurd prerequisites (eg glyph exactly this point in the screen, Hsien’s item has to be a star) are impractical. Then we move into unnecessarily difficult combos where a shorter one would suffice. Now, in this case, I mean that if when you compare two similar combos, one hard and one easy, the hard one is only worth using if it comes with benefits over the easy one.

What it takes to deem it practical vary from person to person. For me, if it does a sizable amount more damage than the original combo, or gains a sizable amount of additional meter, then it may be worth it. It all depends on how hard it is. Take Strange for example. The benefits of learning the Impact Palm loop were huge, so I did. It’s practical, because it has huge benefits for a not-too-hard combo. Learning the opener with grounded Impact Palm canceled into glyphs? Worth it. Although it may only work against grounded, it does over 800k solo and mashed, which, if memory serves me right, is about 150k more than just a traditional Impact Palm loop.

But what about those corner Eye of Agamotto loops? That’s where I draw the line. In my team, it would require me using Haggar in the middle of a combo (read: costs 100k and I’ll probably DHC before it can regenerate), and then hitting a tight link, just to get about an additional 30k. Not by any means worth it to me. Little added meter, little added damage, 2 or 3 frame link. That’s what I deem to be impractical.

I tend to think a lot more stuff is practical in this game than most people think. Maybe it’s because I come from SSF4, where people are hitting one-frame links in tournaments. There, your execution is actually considered somewhat bad if you can’t hit a one-framer semi-consistently. I watch people like Latif pulling off the hardest of Viper combos in major tournaments without ever dropping them. Then I come to UMvC3 and people are whining about Lightning Loop. It’s not only practical, but essential to a good Zero. I don’t know, I just think you guys are underestimating yourselves and the community as a whole.


#11

first of all lol@ using ryry as an example , that guy drops everything

also it according to the teir thread anything that wesker players can’t do is impractical


#12

Well no, but…Nova H loop, he can actually rep it 2 times (as we can see on desk vid). BUT ! the 2nd time is hard as ball and give a measly 20k dmg more. (or is harder than the rocket punch version wich is more damaging) so this is impractical.

There is also the case of solo combo versus combo using assist.

Look at dormammu, his combo using dark matter into teleport dash C is harder (not impossible by all mean, some hour in training mode and it can be mastered) does around 800k dmg.
Dumb as hell relaunch combo with an OTG assist => 800k.

Sentinel self relaunch => around 850 but if you start it from a jHjS or jM jS (anything with the frying pan) or against airborn opponent, the timing become a bit wacky.

Sentinel relaunch with OTG assist (dumb as hell) => around 850k (with 1 meter, with 2 meter using TK rocket punch into hardrive i think both combo skirt around 1million dmg).

the way this game reward simple stuff make the more advanced combo that much less reliable in comparaison :confused:


#13

if the damage improvement is significant, yeah it’s worth learning something that takes more work than whatever combo you’re currently using. i’d say a combo becomes impractical when using it carries a significantly higher chance of being dropped (nerves, etc.) and is only marginally better than something simpler to perform.


#14

the thing is with all that you mentioned you need a otg assist and if your team don’t have one then, what?

but yer this game has made people lazy as hell


#15

Yeah, to me a combo is worth learning only if it does 80-100k more dmg than my current BnB.

Well, between the character that can self otg and extend using an assist (to take my sent exemple again you can call assist, rocket punch OTG, relaunch) and the number of OTG assist in the game…
Yeah it’s easy to be lazy ^^".


#16

the thing here aswell say you use wesker otg as a way to open up? you’re just going to do subpar damage now because you’re to lazy to learn a real combo?
this is exactly what happens though

plus couldn’t you do the advanced combo into wesker otg ?


#17

I see this thrown around a lot, and I think its a cop out argument. Is practice really going to make perfect? If I spend my years shooting hoops, does that mean i’ll have 100% accuracy making shots? If I spend my whole life golfing, and I just going to make hole in ones all day every day? Execution in fighting games obviously isn’t the same, but the concept is the same.

Consistency is extremely important in a game like Marvel, where opting to go for a slightly longer combo instead of super can result in you getting OCV’d by a character on their magic pixel. The same people spouting about Marvel players being lazy and not innovative are the same people I see dropping those slightly higher execution combos when it counts.

I hate using this argument because I don’t believe pro-players should be held to a different standard than other people, but if sponsored FG players that have been in the scene for 10-20+ years, play fighting games like its their life, and are constantly playing in high stress competitive environments, and are STILL dropping combos, is it really reasonable to say it just comes down to “Practice more, scrub”?

Anyway I don’t think I have too much more to make a point on other than that. Of course players are lazy and will look for the easy way out, but there are definitely impractical combos that exist, and people should definitely stick to their guns. Like previously stated, practical for one, may be extremely impractical for another, theres no gold standard of execution that everyone is at.


#18

Anything other than ABCS BBCS OTG Super?

Pfft. You will not survive. Impractical.


#19

in short yes

pratice is the only way you will get better at something, but everybody is human

ie: you spend most of your life walking but you will still trip over now and again


#20

Impractical Combo:

<Inputs for combo> = 450k
Opponent must be in this part of the stage, AND AS SOON AS YOU LAND, you HAVE TO CALL SPIDER-STING, then YOU HAVE TK RDP-
etc, too much effort for not enough reward. Or requirements for the combo are too strict, both assist and positioning-wise.