Delayed Wakeup Option?


#1

Was just trying to find out what all the top Honda players wanted for AE 2013 updates… Mike Ross via Twitter: “All I ask for the AE update is a delayed wakeup option. That’s right, get rid of your safe jumps, option selects, vortex BS. PLAY LIKE HONDA”

I seriously love that idea but do you think that would make the vortex characters way too weak? Should only certain characters get this ability? Would there need to be an additional mechanic (i.e. hitting them on the ground) to make this viable?(seems unrealistic that they would add that) Let me hear your thoughts.


Ultra Street Fighter 4 General
Ultra Street Fighter 4 General
#2

I like this alot. As long as all characters have a couple of ways to score hard knockdowns to allow for safejump/vortex/etc I can’t see the negative in this. It doesnt take anything away from the game except for that which alot of us are coming to despise.

I think it will definitely weaken charaters that depend on vortex, but for the most part those characters have other options for doing damage. I’m more of a footsies/spacing/reads guy anyways, I really don’t care for what SF4 has become in the last year or two.

I see this as being a really efficient way of changing the way the game is played while not necesarily having to hand out major nerfs/buffs all over the place.

Indestructable.


#3

I hate the idea. Aerial attacks designed to beat reversals would become unreliable and noone will want to apply any pressure at all because of easy, safe reversals. I think this is one change that would make me quit the game completely. Quick-rise is already delayable by about 5f and that already messes with setups.

I have no problem with loopable oki setups being nerfed, but don’t mess with wake up timing.


#4

Garbage idea, safejumps are a part of the game, we don’t want another SFxT which if you haven’t noticed isn’t nearly as good of a game as AE.

US players need to focus on one game, it’s very obvious how playing several games at the same time isn’t working for them, they aren’t as threatening as they once were and they just like to blame it on characters or “ZOMG VORTEX”.

Also, what’s with all these dramatic changes to game that’s been out for 4 years? SF5 will be out after next gen is released, keep your suggestions for future games instead of destroying a perfectly fine game.


#5

This would only work if you could vary the amount of time you stay on the ground by a significant margin. If it’s like quickrise, it won’t have the desired result because people would figure out setups that cover both the normal hard knockdown and the delayed hard knockdown.


#6

Eh, the DakStalkers, Alpha and CvS series had variable wakeup in some form and I don’t think anyone would say that they suffered for it. SFxT’s problems go much deeper than the wakeup system.


#7

The problem with SFxT is it made oki mechanics weaker while keeping the same wake up mechanics that make the vortex prevalent in SF4.

The biggest problem is that with the FADC system in place classic meaty pressure and classic frame trap games are weaker because at any time someone can just mash the hell out of DP. If it hits, ultra. If not, I’m safe. It’s a problem where they made the moves way too safe for the kind of reward it gives. That’s why the vortex became so good is it was a way you could actually make it risky for mashing out reversals.

SFxT on the other hand left the problem of moves being way too safe to use in the game while removing the mechanic that countered it. It’s gotten better about that, but still a problem.

It’s one of those things where I either want to see them remove safe wake up and the vortex, or not remove either of them.


#8

In a perfect world, Dimps would get rid of the SRK shortcut, make FADC strictly a combo extension/damage absorption mechanic and implement variable wakeup. This isn’t a perfect world, though, and if I had to choose one thing from that list, it would be variable wakeup because I think canned knockdown setups are the biggest problem in SF4.


#9

bad idea. i like that you can force characters to accept pressure with a safe jump +OS.

the part i dont like is ambiguous for attacker and defender left/right + OS, 3 way loss kobyashi maru scenarios.

assuming capcom has half a brain, theyll do away with unblockables, prolly making them into 2 sided blockables or something, but i like the way the rest of sf4 works


#10

what if it were only for certain characters and what if it were at a fixed time interval? and if hard knockdowns still exist where you cannot quickrise or delay then i don’t think it’s broken at all. I think Ken’s safejump pressure is way too strong against honda, if you press any button you eat ultra, so you are basically forced to eat throws. vortex pressure should exist but it can be next to impossible to escape at times. I can see why people don’t like the idea though, it seems like too drastic of a change to be realistic.


#11

I have been thinking about this idea ever since Mike suggested it on a Wakeup SRK episode, but for SF4 it just isn’t a good idea. Almost all knock downs will just be an end to an attacking phase and reset characters. We’ll see a lot more footsie based play, ie, jab jab jab jab, oh a hit confirm xx into my fav combo = back to beginning, jab jab jab (I’m not saying footsies is boring, just making a point about the change it’ll have on SF4). I can see a lot of matches ending in timeouts and it’ll be boring as hell to watch.


#12

Or you are actually forced to make a read instead of mash reversal at every chance you get. Just saying.


#13

Well then its just hold block and pray you’ve chosen correctly. Against anyone decent, wake up reversal is basically not an option. They always apply safe pressure on knockdown, i have never played against anyone good who I can EX Headbutt or buttslam on wakeup for the most part. I mean to be honest with Honda it is already PRETTY HARD to get knocked down against most of the cast. It’s really just Seth and Akuma that are a problem for me because it is so hard to get in on them in the first place… to hold a neutral game is not the challenge it is actually hitting them. And that is normally how I am getting knocked down. I don’t feel that same sort of pressure vs. Cammy, Adon, or Fei Long. I do feel it vs. other zoners like Ryu, Guile, and Ken, but I feel like their defense is just not as strong vs. Honda.


#14

I should introduce you to the lesser-known option of “block the jump-in, reversal during the attack string”.


#15

What if I don’t want to play like Honda… You know who’s really good at playing like Honda? Honda. How about we make EX headbutt -30 on block like a real reversal and then we can talk about stuff like nerfing oki. And make sumo slam -6 so you can’t spam it.

If my throw only does 13% damage and I don’t get a setup, why should I even go for it? I deserve a safe jump at least because I took the risk of getting close enough to throw you.


#16

Because throws (like overheads) are a defense breaker and an offensive mixup. They let your opponent know that he has to do more than hold down-back when you’re attacking him.

You’re only entitled to it because the SF4 engine allows it. Other fighting games have taken the emphasis off wakeup to positive effect.

I do agree that simply changing the wakeup system in SF4 isn’t going to fix its many problems. It needs a Street Fighter Alpha 2, Vampire Savior or Capcom vs. SNK 2 style overhaul, but I don’t think Dimps has the talent to pull something like that off.


#17

All the games you mentioned use a 1 button throw and all have stronger frame advantage than SF4. And jabs typically aren’t 3 frames in those games (at least not in VS). Throws are riskier in SF4 because every jab leads to a knockdown, and because of DP FADC. Crossups/deep jump-ins are the only way people really have to try to take away that easy option.


#18

VS doesn’t have really have big emphasis on oki (outside of certain chars matchups eg. Aulbath Bubble loops). Most of the damage is done in neutral situations.

ST definitely has safe jumps and they’re a good tool in that game. It also has safe jump OS (and stuff like Throw OS DP), which in the hands of lets say a good T.Hawk player is much stronger than anything in SSFIV.


#19

8 frame reversal doesn’t do fuck all in block strings


#20

How do you figure that? Let’s say Ryu does cr.lp (+2f) into cr.mp (4f startup) on block. Shave off the +2f advantage from cr.mp so it basically becomes a 2f normal. That still leaves 13f of animation for you to punish with a reversal unless he cancels into something in which case you’re safe even if you attempted to reversal because auto-guard. And even if he or another character does bait out your EX Headbutt, in most cases you would still be safe at the cost of 1 bar.