Dhalsim vs. Sagat

dhalsim

#1

I haven’t found any specific Sagat thread, so I’m opening a new one.

Which is the best strategy against Sagat?
It’s a really difficult match, also with decent Sagat player, 'cause of the huge damage he does and the great stamina he got. I’m also referring to Sagat that know:

  • How to punish random teleports
  • does fireball war at maximum distance
  • how to combo to ultra (especially with f+hk)
  • use focus at close distance
  • use safe tiger knee

Sagat may have a lot of different strategy, but I find a lot of trouble against turtling ones that do fireball war.

I know the way to avoid his shots (tower,slide,jump,fire,ex fire) but if he isn’t cornered I generally cannot hit him with s.hp because of distance.

the only thing I know is to use a lot of ex fire.


#2

If they like to stay at full screen distance, sooner or later they will corner themselves if you approach carefully. Be patient and when they are cornered, you control the distance and can start to play your poke game. That works for me.

I have more trouble with the agressive ones… if they are not predictable, its hard for me to not miss one counter until they are dead… and when I miss one, they do a lot of damage…


#3

Basically you want Sagat to be at the tip of your st.fierce punch. Too close he will rush you down, too far he will win the fireball war. The ideal position is 3/4 of the screen if the sagat is in the corner. Once you have the ideal position, try to play fireball with him and punish him on recovery or at the startup of tiger shots. The best video that demonstrate this situation is Iyo vs Mago in a tournament.

Recently I’ve lost to a sagat in a tourney who just stayed back and fireball me to death. Originally i thought jump fierce would work but he would just time it to tiger uppercut me. Good sagats will break their patterns of tiger shots so that they can counter teleport cross-up with BnB.

Imo to win the fight is how well you dodge the tiger shots with slide/jump drills/yoga tower and maintain that 3/4 spacing. Eventually sagat will have to rush you down to get the life lead before the clock runs out.


#4

It depends on which tiger shots he did. Low TS has -6 frame advantage on block, while High TS has only -2. So the first one is punishable if you’ve a good reflex, the second one NO.

It’s very difficult against a good sagat to reach the 3/4 position, you need a good reflex predicting which TS is going to come.

I’ve played against the probably best Sagat on XBL (AliouneSensei) and he destroyed me. I cannot manage him in short distance (I should learn to use back dash more) and he’s so good to zoning me with TS (it’s a paradox lol).

What I’ve learnt:

  • never do a random jump in 'cause he can punish with huge combos.
  • teleport crossups generally don’t work
  • on wake up do not teleport away because it’s too predicable, and a kara TU will hit you
  • always use fire ex to gain some space

I’ve found some videos on YT, check them please:
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Wywywywy is a very good player.


#5

you play to much average sagat players :stuck_out_tongue: thats wy sensei destroyed you =p


#6

sure.
But I need a lot of pratice and some advices here because I generally lost also against decent Sagats…


#7

I think this is likely your problem, gore.

The thing is, he shouldn’t be able to zone you with Tigershots. You WANT fireball wars with Sagat because you WIN fireball wars against Sagat.

It takes alot of practice to be good at reacting to Sagat’s fireball mixup – I still eat a LOT of fireballs while I’m trying to dodge them, lol. But I think that’s the fundamental skill you’ve gotta have in order to win this matchup.

Sanfoo’s post is all that can be said, really…

p.s., my friend (who plays a RIDICULOUS Sagat) was talking about a match he played against Sabin’s Sim, and he said that Sabin pushed him to the corner with fireballs and pokes and then used Ultra for the 50/50. I think thats a pretty good synopsis of your goal in this one.


#8

[quote=“NDRWPNDY, post:7, topic:82309”]

I think this is likely your problem, gore.

**The thing is, he shouldn’t be able to zone you with Tigershots. You WANT fireball wars with Sagat because you WIN fireball wars against Sagat. **:china::china::china::china::china:

go to player match invte someone who wnts to help you

and then He’s gonna spam tigershots and youre can avoid them all

you only need to do it 1 time ( 30 min :p-) i know its long

but after it youre gonna avoid tigershots like if its youre 2nd nature:p

It


#9

Still have to learn this matchup.
I’ve also lost vs ultradifficult AI lol!!

I’m watching Iyo’s video a bunch of times, just to see which option he use after dodging a shot, which bait he uses and which limbs he choose when round starts.
I’ll post all infos later.


#10

Do you have a good Sagat to practice with? If not, get one

Playing random scrubs on CM won’t help you much, as you’ll learn to counter stupid shit that no one good does anyway. I’ve found the best way for me to learn matchups in this game, is to have intense series of maybe 20-30 fights against the same character from time to time, so you really have tim to iron out your tactical flaws


#11

Yeah I agree with Lollaff- you really need to get a good Sagat player to have a series of friendlies with you, so you can iron out any bad habits and tone up on the things that do work against sagat.

For me, this fight is also very tricky (name one character it isn’t tricky for lol) but you are right in what you say in your opening post- you MUST take full advantage of the Yoga Tower and slide and if you sense a fireball with a jump in, try FA backdash, so you are out of harms way after the TS. You literally have to be second guessing his TS’s and throwing out your limbs during his startup frames in my opinion. Also, I’ve found the predictable tiger shot happy sagats are susceptible to an IAT combo, and lets face it, you only need to pull that off once a match to win!

My main problem is a sagat that zones very well, but when I get 3/4 of the screen they get uber aggressive, dash cancel any limbs, jump in with the frickin peoples elbow (MAN i HATE that move! Can you Smelll-el-el-el-ellll what Sagat is cookin’) and start applying pressure with the tiger knee, shorts, kara, throws mixups- really really hate it when they do that! It only takes one TU-> FADC -> Ultra to really put sim in a world of pain!!!


#12

What do you guys do at the start of the match? I feel like the first few seconds will really affect how I play (something which I should get over). Normally I’ll just db but sometimes it ends up being a fireball war and although Sim can win it, its a bit hard if you dont get much practice with it. I’m also trying to work on sliding under low fireballs but I always seem to get my timing just off, the tail of the shot always hits me. Could somebody give me some tips on that? Also, could somebody give me some tips on anti-airing? I know what to use at what situation and can do it in training mode, but when I play people I just…dont. I just block, or if I do try to AA I time it too late/early and get combo’d for it.


#13

I play Sagat and so I’ll just drop a few things that I thought gave me a lot of trouble. For most of the matches the few good Sims I’ve played generally stayed at a range where they could counter poke my TS’s. That’s generally what they did too, they got the life lead and then just zoned for the entire match. I feel Sagat gets beat pretty decisively at a range where you can counter poke his TS’s. He either has to back up and get out of your range to throw TS’s, which puts him in the corner, or he has to approach and you get to punish his impatient jump ins (don’t let him jump in on you for free or your fucked). Don’t get predictable with your pokes or you’ll get TU’d.

Be really careful when you’re jumping to punish TS’s with your j. fierce because Sagat has two main options from there. He can TU, or he can focus absorb dash and then nail you with two forward roundhouses into ultra, so avoid that. Your better off on the ground anyways. Use that tele bnb combo rarely, if Sagat predicts it and has two ex bars and ultra, game over.

When you use your ultra set ups know that he can Ex TU through them, I’ve hit many unsuspecting sims with that, so if your opponent uses it bait it and then punish with your best punish combo.

That’s all I can think of right now.


#14

Holy shit that comment had me lulzing for like 3 straight minutes… :rofl::rofl::rofl:

to BMan, nice post. Good to hear advice from the other side of the fence. :tup:


#15

Haha, I guess it is kinda funny :rofl: but when its happening in game I feel like chuckin’ the stick at the TV!!!

But nice to know theres a sense of humour out there! ^^


#16

Iyo simply go back most of times, to reach the 3/4 distance.
Few times he uses s.lk to punish both shots, but he risks a TU.

I think s.mp is good too, it does a little bit more dmg than s.lk, but you have to perform as soon as you can (or you’ll trade with shots).

Never use s.hp, he could punish with FA, forward dash, TU while you recover.


#17

If you s.mp, can he hit you with an immediate TU or will it stuff it? Would the absolute safest option to be just walk back and react to whatever he does?


#18

Gonna throw this out, but don’t be discouraged about Sagat’s damage output compared to yours and how his tigershots practically do as much damage as one of your jabs. Something you should try to avoid doing as much as possible is jumping forward. They can HK anti-air you into ultra or simply tiger uppercut you if you try to avoid that by teleporting behind them cause you’ll already be high in the air and you’ll land really slow even if you land a hit. If anything, just neutral jump if you have to and duck under high fire balls and tower the low one.

Both high and low are MK slidable and that might bring you into a suitable position to hit them from long range, but be careful about jump ins. It’s usually better to throw out a couple LOW light and medium jabs (smaller chance of getting beat out by moves since they come out and back to you fast) so that you will have a better chance of recovering from those if he happens to jump over your jab and toward you. Don’t get impatient if you are lower on health then him. To be on the safe side, you usually will just want to move back or block at the start of the match in case they try to go agressive on you. He’s not a very fast character if you get knocked down from full screen so it should be easier to keep him away than most other characters like Bison or Balrog and that’s probably one of the big reasons why this match up is 50/50. Tiger Knee’s are punishable and learn when they are safe, cause you don’t want to get tiger uppercutted at the end. See whether your opponent likes throwing out high or low tigershots more and don’t be predictable with throwing out jabs constantly. Minimize how much you teleport too and if you’re near a corner, see if you can slide under them if they try jumping or yoga drill out of there.


#19

I’ve found this matchup relies a great deal on Sims ability to “meter build.” If we can get enough meter for a super, then we can IAT into our super for some lovely damage, a knockdown and some IAT crossup/wake up game fun. If you don’t fancy being that ambitious, then build that meter and get an ex-fireball out there followed by some MK slides/dsah-forward to get in range of limbs. If the sagat is combating your limbs by jumping in (very common strategy for Sagats in G2/lower G1) then focus/ultra them on bait. Better sagats wont necessarily panic when you get in arms length, and will tend to focus attack any misplaced limbs- its very important to know that Tiger shots do have a fair amount of recovery- certainly 1 of the larger recovery times, so sliding/towering is absolutely crucial!

On the topic of jumping into sagat, you have to really be comfortable with your sim game to adopt this strategy- as Amsalp points out, he can and will catch you in a RH into ultra if you arent careful. BUT, you can sometimes bait out a TU with this strategy, by teleporting back before he fires off the TU, and punish accordingly, so there is a time and a place. Also, TS happy sagats can allow for sim to jump in and j.HP on recovery, however, just be aware of that recovery time again, as its really not worth eating RH -> ultra!

Not an easy one for sim, and id say not 5-5, more like 6-4 to sagat, BUT it is a fight Sims can win :slight_smile:


#20

I can’t win against good Sagats.
I probably use too much s.hp, and I often am punished at 3/4 of the screen (!!!) by FA, forward dash, TU, f+hk, ULTRA that sips as minimum HALF OF MY LIFE. It’s not fair I know, but how can I damage him without using s.HP? Fast long pokes do a really poor damage to him.

I also have big problems against aggressive Sagats that will not jump so much and try to close the distance walking / using TK or TU. I don’t know how to punish them 'cause I probably fear too much a TU.

I surely need more practice, but I’m so far to win any matches yet.