Does Phoenix "break" game play?

phoenix

#1

This is not a QQ thread or a complain thread about how strong phoenix is. I just want to see what people honestly think. It’s a given that phoenix is strong character. This isn’t about what this thread is about.

When playing against pheonix you are almost required to play a certain way or your chances of winning are severely hindered. In fighting games the point is to bring your opponents life down. When playing a pheonix you generally don’t do this because doing this most of the time this will make her better. Your almost forced to doing 2 things when facing a phoenix; 1) snap her in repeatability to kill her before she gets 5 (you could debate 4 1/2 becauase hitting builds meter) meter or 2) attempt to time her out. The first option is what I believe most people would do, but it’s not nearly as easy as it sounds. I believe most phoenix player wouldn’t think twice about raw tagging in because 1) they will still build meter from getting hit and 2) if they have 5 meter and save X-factor she can easily OCV a team.

So what am asking is do you think Pheonix “breaks” gameplay? I’m curious to see the arguments that come out of this. (AGAIN:NO I’M NOT ASKING IF YOU THINK SHE IS A BROKEN/BEST CHARACTER IN GAME/A TOP TIER CHARACTER.)

Coming in here and saying things like “You suck get better” or “stay free phoenix is easy” just shows that you did not read this.


#2

No, you simply play against a Phoenix team.
Whether or not you snap her in isn’t the ultimate deciding factor. You can always coward-block in the corner till XF is done.
And yeah, this thread.
Useless poll, fyi.


#3

That threads different. They are asking if phoenix is more or less for people to sit on who aren’t as good, this thread is asking if she “breaks” the game. I don’t think your read it all. If it bothers you that much i’ll take out the part on how people are going far in tournaments. And how is the poll useless? I want to see if people think she is or not?


#4

All she does is kinda force you to fight differently. However, nobody has to fight differently if you don’t want to. She has BIG flaws btw. You know… worst health ever? Health drains in DPh? One good mixup and she’s dead? The fact that to get to DPh you pretty much have to nerf your own teammates?

This has been THE INVINCIBLE SWORDSMAN saying:

But oh well… honestly there are way too many bitches playing fighting games nowadays. “I lost? WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH! It must be something else! It’s not my fault!” I wonder how some of you guys would react to just HALF of the shit in MvC2 like guard breaks.

For you FPS players, I’ll put it like this… Usually when you’re in a gunfight, you try to get shoot and get away rotate to dodge bullets. Well, Phoenix is a rocket launcher. If you get hit and die, it’s your own damn fault.


#5

Thats what i’m trying to get at. Sometimes that “play different” is not killing a character in a fighting game. This is why I’m asking if you think shes “broken”. The way you play different isn’t minor it’s a pretty huge change. Sometime there are phoenix players intentionally getting hit/not blocking to activate dark phoenix. In a fighting game shouldn’t you be rewarded for killing a character and be punished for not blocking? In a way having low health is good and bad. It’s good when she doesn’t have 5 meter, but when she does and your trying to keep away you can’t really touch any buttons cause you may accidentally hit her.

This isn’t what the thread is about. It’s not a thread about how i lost to phoenix and coming to complain that shes too good. It’s I’ve played a lot of Phoenix(regardless of if it’s online or not) and watched a lot of streams with phoenix players and I find that what you do in any fighting game you almost do the opposite to phoenix (as stated before). As for the “you get hit you die”; thats the worst saying. Show me a person who frequently doesn’t get hit by anything and wins, especially in a game like marvel. You will get hit and even if you block your taking damage through chip.


#6

There are still other ways other than simply running away that you can still fight and kill Phoenix with 5 bars/DPh. As for it being “pretty huge”… well yeah, kinda. I don’t just play fighting games so I can understand thinking of other things like how to kill a character by pulling a lever and making them fall into a hole. In this way, I LIKE that you should (not must) try to kill Phoenix teams (not just Phoenix) in different ways other than “GRRRRRR! ARRRRGH!! Killl everything in front of me!! ARGH!!”

I like it. It’s different. It’s not “broken”.

Not really talking about you.

This has been THE INVINCIBLE SWORDSMAN saying:

Again, you don’t have to run from Phoenix to beat her. You have to hit her at the right time/when the oppurtunity presents itself.

And running from Phoenix doesn’t/shouldn’t work anyway.


#7

How many times does an opportunity present its self though? Half the cast can’t touch her when she super jumps and uses following fireballs, but i don’t want this to turn into a how good or bad phoenix is thread. The point is that trying to get that that point, and after that point a phoenix player changes things to be different from what your supposed to do in a fighting game and that actual point is very slim. Raw tagging and getting punished is more favorable then letting phoenix with a sliver of health die. Once you get 5 meters you generally WANT to get hit because it makes you better. In a sense it eliminates a major part of fighting games: blocking. Yea after you get Dark Phoenix you’ll block occasionally but since turning into Dark Phoenix resets the situation in most cases with her “I can’t control it” explosion and gives her the upper hand.


#8

A character with 400k health has to be made broken to be viable. So yes. She doesn’t break the game but she is a broken character because if she wasn’t broken she would be terrible.

The balance in Phoenix is the absolute risk of using her to begin with. You have to dumb down the play style of your first 2 characters and hope Phoenix doesn’t get randomed out so she becomes this beast that can easily kill 3 characters. Yet as we see in pretty much every tournament…she still ends up getting hit or lamed out once she gets close to the top spot in a tourney.


#9

Phoenix players generally want to hit you in normal mode. They also will block in normal mode to delay the Dark Phoenix mode because there’s still the possibility of OCV’ing if the opponent is just trying to run away. Against three on a team with near full-health, Dark Phoenix has a good chance to get randomed out. There’s no guarantee that she will win in any circumstance, tbh.


#10

I don’t think we are on the same page. The way I see it is I look at the rest of the cast and how anyone would play them. Yea thats different from character to character, but then you get to Phoenix. You have very little you can do except random her out, or continually snap her out and hope she doesn’t get back out. Watching matches since the games been out (i know it’s only been what, 3 months?) how often does that happen? Then when she is finally out with 5 meter you can’t really do anything. You can run away and attempt to lame her out, but with the amount of mobility and the following projectiles good luck. This is where the broken part is. This is a game where you objective is to Time someone out or bring their health all the way down. So you go to kill Phoenix, and when you finally do she gets even better. You decide to go with a time out so you can’t touch Phoenix because if you do she will eventually get full life. This is a huge advantage because winning by life goes by % not total life. Also if you opt for the time out option the eliminates the need for blocking with Phoenix. She can continually approach/zone you, chip you out, mix you up and if you do end up “killing her” she gets the life advantage and is stronger.


#11

Edited title for clarification.


#12

If this was a one on one game yeah sure I would say she would break the game. A character like this pretty much no one would have the balls to create in a competitive sense for a one on one game. It’s 3 on 3 though so no matter how good Phoenix is it’s still just one of 3 characters. She technically can turn any team into a 4 man team but her low health makes it so it can definitely go the other way around and end up with a 2 man team seconds into the match.

What you’re supposed to do against a Phoenix team is kill off the first 2 players quickly or kill off Phoenix quickly. If you start getting man handled early by a team that’s not burning meter and only has one useful assist available then yeah you’re most likely going to lose. Fighting Phoenix isn’t just about fighting Phoenix, it’s about being able to deal with her slaves also. You have to realize her slaves aren’t going to spend meter to kill you like they normally would so this gives you more of a threshold to kill them off quicker. The most often that people lose to Phoenix is because they do a poor job fighting off her slaves which dont burn any meter and then have to fight a 4 character team. You can’t let the slaves bring down your characters early. Killing off her slaves is very important also because if it comes down to having to fight 5 bar Phoenix you’ll end up fighting against Dark Phoenix with zero meter. The easiest way to beat Dark Phoenix (especially XF3 D.Phoenix) with any character is to not have to fight one that already has meter 2 and 3 meters stocked up. That means you’ll have to deal with a D.Phoenix that can activate healing field on top of everything else. Plus if they have even one slave left that’s a big issue because you’ll end up taking hits from them which brings down your chances of winning on top of everything else.

The most broken aspect of Phoenix or what she does to the game is that she is the ultimate XF character. I’ve been saying this since before the game came out. The first time I turned on XF3 D.Phoenix when I got to play the game a week before release and mashed on jabs and killed an entire full health team it made me realize that XF is broken. All of the issues of Dark Phoenix having long start up and recovery on her fireballs and teleports, forced to lose health and turn on healing field just to maybe regain some health and not get chipped out…it all goes away as long as you have level 3 XF. Most of the cast should have a better matchup against Dark Phoenix than regular Phoenix but they dont because all of the glaring issues of Dark Phoenix are completely mitigated by the absurdity of level 3 XF. You’re supposed to have a big chance of winning against Dark Phoenix but the fact that a character like D.Phoenix gets access to the same power boost of XF3 that everyone complained that Sentinel got it’s just too much. People complained about how good level 3 Sentinel was early in the game and I knew from the beginning he was absolute garbage compared to level 3 XF Dark Phoenix. Which is ridiculous because level 3 XF Sent is still pretty damned broken. LOL.

Forcing Phoenix to turn into Dark Phoenix should be a liability for Phoenix but the fact that she gets access to the same 20 second bullshit factor with all of those projectile options means the only way to win is to run to the corner and chicken block out 20 seconds of bullshit. Which during that 20 seconds you can either try to hope you catch something lucky before or just wait till it completely burns out and then fight her when she is not in her XF3 state and any wrong move with her can kill her off. It’s shit like that that makes you realize why Dark Phoenix should have access to a much weaker XF or not have access to it at all.

**The reason why Phoenix is so good is because when she gets to Dark Phoenix no one actually has to learn how to use her. ** XF3 Dark Phoenix allows the most idiotic of idiots become a huge threat with her. Your little cousin with 20 seconds of level 3 XF D.Phoenix could kill off one or 2 of your characters. XF plays Dark Phoenix for you basically. You’re not fighting against Dark Phoenix anymore, you’re fighting against a ridiculous aspect of the game that’s already retarded and thoughtless when used with Wesker or Sentinel. Most people that play Dark Phoenix probably can’t even do more than 500k when she’s not in XF even though she has real combos that can do up to 1 million damage. Why? Because they dont need to since their health doesn’t go down, they’re 30 percent faster, can’t get chipped and do the same damage with AAAAA BCS BBC super. Dark Phoenix should be a risky last ditch attempt to win because of the fact that she is constantly losing health and has to turn on a healing mode just to maybe not get chipped out by pretty much anything but it all goes away by having every single issue about her dissapear due to a broken mechanic of the game.

**When you lose to XF3 Dark Phoenix you lost to the game. Which means the game is broken and needs to be fixed. Not the player or the character. **Even level 3 XF Wesker or Sentinel are broken disgraces to fighting games that can easily turn around any fight and shit needs to change so such characters can’t run through whole teams every other match. You can’t realistically do anything to beat those characters in XF3 either. It’s just the way Phoenix is designed elements come together where she ends up getting even more advantages than they do. So it’s basically a more broken version of shit that’s already broken with other characters. There’s actual strategic reasons to burn XF early with other teams but on a Phoenix team they never need to strategically use any XF other than level 3 with D.P. and that’s mainly due to the crazy long duration of level 3 XF that should not exist.

**They need to tone down XF in general so mindless porting around with Wesker, flying around with Sent S fishing for 100 percents and Dark Phoenix being completely absurd doesn’t run the game like it is now. The fact that the non XF’d version of D.Phoenix never has to come into play just shows how terribly implemented the XF system is. **Luckily even with all of that Phoenix is still enough of a risk to use that she rarely actually ends up winning tournaments. Until they fix the XF system she will be an unnecessary randomness to the game. Regular Phoenix by design was most likely supposed to be a better character than Dark Phoenix but XF3 turns Dark Phoenix into a much better character than regular Phoenix and I doubt that was intended by the developers. D.Phoenixes health constantly drains which alone makes her effectively much worse than regular Phoenix despite all of her advantages. Dark Phoenix is literally dying whereas regular Phoenix doesn’t have to worry about that which is a huge advantage to win as regular Phoenix rather than wait for D.Phoenix… With the XF system though that balance ends up breaking and everyone fears the worst manifestation of XF3 in the game.

Level 3 XF is pretty much the reason why I just play this game for fun than take it super seriously. I study the game because I like the mechanics and its interesting but competitively the game is trash because of XF. Until it gets toned down to a point where matches dont rely on the randomness of XF it’s just a game with a lot of interesting elements but garbage for competitively play. Once it gets toned down I feel the game can be a much more interesting and thoughtful game with a lot of creativity. XF in its current state pretty much destroys any reason to be creative in a game that has a ton of potential for it.


#13

So I just quickly glanced over your post. It’s hard to tell what side our taking or if your in the middle(Maybe it will become clear when I have time to read the whole thing).

Just throwing this out there; What defines a character as broken (even in a game like marvel), and what warrants a ban(in any game)? For example what was the reasons characters in previous games were banned like SF:3?


#14

**I’m taking the side of no. What I’m trying to say is that you dont even realize what is broken. It’s not Phoenix. It’s XF. ** Phoenix is only broken to the extent that she is tough to hit. Which she has to be because you can’t design a standard character around 400k health. Some characters have special moves that do nearly 200k damage. Once you hit Phoenix she crumbles to the floor. Unfortunately with level 3 XF Dark Phoenix never has to worry about crumbling to the floor like her design most likely had originally intended to work out. All of her issues with being chipped out by anything, losing health, risky start up on fireballs and teleports…it’s all gone. She combines herself with level 3 XF to become a force that I doubt was intended by the game. It takes all of the risk away from a character that’s supposed to be risky. This is already considering other level 3 XF characters are retarded broken also.

In general the fighting game scene comes from a band of people that dont like to ban stuff. We like to fight things out and figure out how to deal with what is powerful because that brings about the highest level of play. Giving in to what is powerful makes you lazy and never brings the game to a high enough level where people are constantly reacting and fighting against powerful things.

Something is “broken” when there’s no way to beat it period. That’s not what Phoenix or Dark Phoenix is. Sure she beats some characters just by doing one thing over and over but that’s apparent in really bad matchups in other fighting games too. Where you pretty much just have to land something lucky or you dont win the matchup. The fact that Akuma and Dormammu literally give Phoenix and D.Phoenix so much problems that it’s arguable that they beat her alone shows that she’s not broken. A broken character doesn’t have to fear anything. They never have to stop what they’re doing in any matchup. They can just keep going and going. Akuma and Dormammu can force Phoenix to stop doing what she wants to do and that alone can keeps her from being broken.

**What is broken is level 3 XF Dark Phoenix. You just absolutely can’t fight the character. ** There is no matchup to worry about or nothing. You cant even press buttons at the character unless you’re using Akuma or one of the few other characters that has random full screen beam hypers because you can’t even chip her. The fact that you can’t chip Phoenix and she’s 30 percent faster is absurd. It completely takes a matchup out of the equation and that’s what makes her broken. She has teleports that you effectively can’t react to while being able to spam projectiles on the screen the whole time. Plus the issue of her constantly losing health which would normally open up a lot of avenue for other characters to fight her out is lost also.

When you look at level 3 XF Wesker or Sentinel it’s the same shit. There’s no matchup. You can’t actually fight them. They are better than your whole team fully loaded with assists and everything. They run shit and you can’t do anything but run from them or risk your entire team getting in trouble.

The same thing with Dark Phoenix. The only way people beat level 3 Dark Phoenix is turn on their level 3 XF run into the corner where her mix up is heavily mitigated and burn it out. People who try to press a button or do anything but block or tech throws die. People who try to do those things but FORGET to run into the corner…die. There’s no matchup to fighting those characters. You just outlast them or die. That’s the issue with the game. ** XF turns every character (well the ones that are already good) into some super force that you are FORCED to run away from.**


#15

I’m going to argue this by quoting your highlights and addressing the paragraphs because quoting your whole thing over and over while deleting a majority of the post every time will be very time consuming and a pain :P.

**“I’m taking the side of no. What I’m trying to say is that you dont even realize what is broken. It’s not Phoenix. It’s XF.” **
I realize that it is Xfactor that is broken. Phoenix is a character that is already solid in her own way and you take a risk in playing her due to low health. But like you said Xfactor lvl3 eliminates all these issues.The issue is that Xfactor breaks Phoenix more then any other character. As for the something being broken by nothing being able to beat it then I don’t understand why Characters like Gill were banned or Akuma. Yea they are really hard to beat, but I’m sure they are beatable. The not banning stuff thats hard to bring out the best in players thing I understand. But how is sitting in the corner and being REQUIRED to do nothing but block bringing out the best in someone?

**"**What is broken is level 3 XF Dark Phoenix. You just absolutely can’t fight the character. "
This is what I’m getting at. Since this is how Phoenix is played, and as of now you cannot turn of Xfactor and it’s still usable in tournaments then Phoenix is broken.

"When you look at level 3 XF Wesker or Sentinel it’s the same shit. There’s no matchup. You can’t actually fight them."
The way I see it it’s not the same. Yea they are better, but they are still many times more beatable than dark Phoenix. They do not fill the screen with projectiles, and they don’t have projectiles that interrupt you after you start a combo on them, and you can actually run from them. You cannot run away from dark Phoenix. Some of her projectiles have homing. She can teleport in multiple spots (which I actually don’t think the corner does anything as she can teleport behind you still correct?) So your only option is to let your “excess” characters die, and activate level 3 xfactor. The only thing this does for you is negate chip. Your still prone to all the mix-ups, projectile interupttions, ect. That also means that you MUST save Xfactor for level 3 to negate chip and have any chance of winning.


#16

If you’re fighting level 3 D.Phoenix you MUST go to the corner unless you’re playing someone with hella good projectile supers. That’s the only way you can mitigate the mix up since the teleports dont cross in the corner. Why people dont know the teleports dont cross in the corner still…I dunno. You can get thrown into death combo in the corner but that’s fine because if you know how to tech throws you can watch for those. People can reaction tech throws at higher level play. They can’t survive a 35 way midscreen XF3 D.P. mix up. It just ends in tragedy everytime. Even the highest level of players will not survive fighting Phoenix in the middle of the screen unless they mash random super or guard XFC something on block. Those are ridiculously bad odds compared to the corner stuff which isn’t in your favor but much less ridiculous.

Saving your XF is part of the matchup and yeah Dark Phoenix is the cheapest of those that are in XF level 3 but it doesn’t excuse the retarded comebacks Wesker and Sentinel can make in level 3 XF either. It’s just a stupid mechanic that needs to be toned down in general. The fact that Wesker and Sentinel require a bit more work to destroy your whole team doesn’t mean much. Wesker will for sure most definitely find you and one that knows how to command grab once they get in will one frame grab your characters down. When your only way to fight a character is to run away from it…that’s pretty much broken. Whether it’s Wesker/Sent/Phoenix anytime I see someone actually try to fight against their level 3 XF they just get owned up and that’s just not interesting for competitive play or to watch.

Like the rage system and ultra systems gave you a bit of a comeback factor in Tekken/SF but you’re not required to have rage or XF yourself to actually fight the character. That’s what’s stupid about XF especially considering only 3 people in the game can do anything close to fighting level 3 XF D.Phoenix and its mainly with like random super which she can just sit and block out any way as long as hers is still on. The only reason she might need to go to Akuma or Dormammu when her XF is on is because if she doesn’t and it runs out she is very liable to get owned.

Gill and Akuma were banned mainly because they had retarded advantages that nobody else had. Gill in 3S has meterless 100 percent combos, normals that do chip damage, a super that does 30 percent chip damage and 70 percent real damage, a sweep that was safe on block and probably the best dash in the game. It’s not like Phoenix where he had low health or nothing either. Had like Urien quality health with all of these advantages and this is considering the game plays in rounds also. In a game like 3S little things like that add up. Yun would barely be able to fight that shit and it’s pretty much assumed that if a Gill player got good enough at the game that people would drop the top tiers for Gill. He was that good.

I dont know everything about ST Akuma but from what I’ve heard it’s basically he just beats the entire cast to the point where it’s just not worth fighting.

Phoenix loses in tournament far more often than either of those two have or would have.


#17

I feel like X-factor Dark Phoenix’s real advantage is largely psychological. When she activates, the player just gets a lot bolder and starts going crazy, and people don’t know what to do because so much shit is going on, even if most of it doesn’t matter. In a purely technical sense, the teleport mixup is basically a 5-way blind guess for the defender that leads to a touch of death combo on anyone, without x-factor.

But yeah X-factor makes it kind of silly. It’s kind of a ham-fisted solution to a delicate problem. It doesn’t need to be toned down so much as changed entirely. I think the obvious change is to flip it around and make it increase a bunch of defense, but that might just be stupid broken in a way I’m not seeing.

And yeah, against anyone who has spent like, an hour learning him, it is impossible to beat ST Akuma.


#18

"
SirKai said: ↑
: are there any boring/dull/lame tactics in this game that are actually effective?

"

Considering your quote in this post and the replies you’re making, I find it hard to believe that this isn’t yet another attempt to disguise a QQ post.


#19

So the guy asked for a lame yet effective team and I told him a Phoenix team. I’m sure a lot of people will agree that Phoenix teams are lame yet effective.


#20

Honestly, what can you do when you go against lvl3 Xfactor Dark Phoenix? I know Phoenix wouldn’t be what I believe is a broken character if Xfactor exist in it’s current state, but it does at this point in time.

As for the Akuma thing I wasn’t into street fighter all the much (due to my age), but from the videos I’m watching and researching it looks like he just has more tools then everyone else.