Does Twelve need any combos?!

twelve

#1

No.

I think the best way to fight against Twelve is to either not jump at all (and deal with his distance game) or to get in his face, which shouldn’t be easy because he’s got too many things to keep you at bay.

If you’re jumping or doing stupid things like jumping Hurricane Kick (EX or no, which is everybody’s first instinct when fighting him), you’re doing exactly what he wants.

I think if you’re a good 12 player, you should be jumping when your opponent isn’t and on the ground when he is… so is that why people are saying he sucks? Because there is no way to develop this skill with time? That’s all there is to it, really.

I also think that XFLAT and XCOPY are garbage and should never be used and that XNDL should never be comboed (takes off more on its own). I also think that you should rarely use XNDL since the opportunity rarely comes up and you’ll be using most of your meter for EX NDL or FLATs anyway. If you have an opportunity to hit your opponent and you don’t have any meter, use a point blank EX AXE (good damage), which won’t knock down but’ll put you at a distance to have a good mixup opportunity (opponent may do something gut reaction afterwards so just sit and parry into c. hk… or if he just sits there, air dash backwards and keep bullshitting).

You can anti air with either an early s. hp (good for meter and damage)… but only if you think he’ll jump (that is if you hit opponent on the rise). If you use it when or after the opponent gets to top of jump it’ll most likely get parried and you’ll get fucked up.

If you want to anti air when opponent is at or after top of jump, use either back and forward kick (handstand kick) XX medium punch AXE (and tap tap tap)… which rarely if ever gets parried… and if opponent wants to parry it let him… he relies on jumping in too much anyway… either that or use 12’s best anti air (works for all anti air situations) EX FLAT. It’s fast, rarely parried and knocks down.

I wouldn’t try anti airing with XNDL because opponent only has to parry early and parry once to get a free 50% combo on you for trying… but any heroes who wanna keep trying “cuz it’s kool” can be my guest. Just watch out when you get to california.

Footsies shouldn’t happen, but if you get close and need to get out of sweep range, I’d use c. lp, c. lk, c. mk, and a NDL of some sort afterwards (or just stop after c. mk would be smarter). Of course, if your opponent taps down after everything he blocks that whole sequence will get nipped after c. lp, so in that case, just c. lp, air dash away (heheh that’s what you parry fiends get).

If you want to punish stupid shotos who c. mk all day, just uni overhead like you would with everyone else (who doesn’t have anything better… i.e. chun li and elena’s s. hk)… but you won’t get much more out of it unless they’re really stupid. If the overheads work, you could try tapping down after they connect (will parry another low kick or dragon punch… stupid gut reaction fiends) and lead into super somehow depending on the situation, but see… it wouldn’t last long (and once again, shit doesn’t happen in california).

oh shit… LEET 12 INFORMATION: s. mk super jump cancels!!

So what. The only real use for this is to combo into XFLAT, which is insanely hard to pull much less easy to land (if you’re gonna hit with s. mk [which has start up], hit with XNDL instead!)… and anything creative with that shit (like s. mk XX super jump, FLAT [EX or not]) is just stupid and even uglier if it hits.

MORE LEET INFORMATION!! YOU CAN DO AXE IN THE AIR!!

This is stupid, too… even to “drop out of the air quick” you could do it just as well with j. hk or FLAT, which has just as much start up time as AXE.

FLATs in the air are actually useful, however… for example:

EX FLAT is safe when blocked, which means you can parry afterwards (when they attack) or super (when they throw attempt).

The regular FLATs have mad priority. The hit box for 12s head is huge and takes out regular attacks long before they come out (trades with shoryuken!).

But don’t let that fool you… regular FLATs suck and are risky. If they get parried, for instance, you’re ground beef. You should only do them if you know they’ll hit. Now, if they’re blocked you should be screwed, too but for some reason (which I’m still scratching my head over), people rarely take advantage of this. I wouldn’t abuse that, anyway, since once they get used to it party’s over.

Two tricks I have with regular FLATs (even better with EX FLATs, of course):

  1. Jump up, air dash and j. hp (scissors)

this of course needs to be done when you have a window to do it… shouldn’t be too hard to find

  1. Whether they block or get hit, air dash back, land

  2. super jump backward, hk FLAT

the HK flat is almost 100% guaranteed to hit because opponents instinctually jump after you hit and run

The other trick is simple and stupid looking… but works a lot! (tried and true)

  1. air dash forward

this is the low air dash forward, of course… you can’t hit with either of the fierces when you do the low air dash… but you can hit with the fucking FLAT!

  1. hk FLAT

this usually hits people that stay on the ground…

The thing about this trick is that you have to know when to do the air dash forward… you have to train opponents to stay on the ground in order to get windows to do it… this is done by air dashing back and attacking all the time (and occassionally doing EX NDL), which I stole from Chikyu, of course! (Praise the man!) Also hits a lot cuz all FLATs are overheads (of course).

12 players will have already noticed that you cannot do EX specials when you’re in air dash mode and that you have to reverse special move motions when you’ve crossed the opponent with an air dash (which shouldn’t happen at all so why did I say it oh yeah cuz I’m LEET).

Also, as a general rule, you should not try to to hit with low air dash forward attacks. It just ain’t happening, my man. If it does, your opponents are weak and you must move to california. If you’re ever gonna hit with low air dash attacks, it’ll be with hk FLAT or a tick grab (which is too slow to call a tick anyway so I wouldn’t even do that!!).

You should only attempt to hit with air dash attacks if you air dash from a height. The low air dashes are Chikyu’s invention, they’re cool, but they’re only used to close distance… trust me. There is no “twelve-neto” or instant overheads. All these warnings and you probably won’t pay attention to reason just like I DIDN’T after relenetlessly pursuing the stupid idea of “a Magneto in 3S”… or even a CvS2 Rolento! But you will try, and fail like me and end up remebering this message and knowing you’re a fucking fool.

12 doesn’t work that way. In the end, you’ll have to ask yourself whether you want 12 to work or if you want him to work your way, which just doesn’t work at all. So either you’ll seperate and stop picking him (like most faggots-go back to Ken, bitch) or give up and use what works like me. (You should be proud you manly man - put yourself on your hairy back YEAAH!!!)

You’ll soon find that EX FLAT is his best move and that you must learn the command to access it quickly (up, QCB plus KK). Once you learn to sense when opponent leaves the ground, he’ll never want to jump anymore! Of course, it can be parried but opponents who parry that often can be exploited. THIS MOVE SHOULD MAKE 12 CHEAP. IF YOU DON’T THINK SO, YOU’RE NOT USING IT RIGHT. DON’T ARGUE WITH ME BECAUSE YOU SUCK WITH 12.

EX FLATS in conjunction with throws are where you get your knockdowns (you can use c. hk occassionally, but it’s not abusable like EX FLAT and throws). Once you learn to tap people in the head with jumping hps (usually preceded by air dash), you’d do good to either air dash back right afterwards (most of the time!!) or just walk up and throw once they come to expect that (in which case they’ll be sitting there waiting for a low move after the jump-in). Occassionally, you can throw the low move THEN air dash back (just to keep them guessing). Once you get those throws, air dashing hps and EX FLATs going, you’ve got a decent 12. Only extra little things make him “better,” which of course don’t… but they do make him LOOK flashier!! (HEHEHEH :sweat: )

AH YES WE ALL LOVE THAT LEET MYSTIQUE.

Also, wall bounce air dash is stupid, time consuming and can be costly… I haven’t found any use for it. Either dash under a jump in or EX FLAT to get out of the corner. A lot easier.

Invisibility works! But only after a fling or slam throw… also depends on what your opponent has to wake up with (if they roll and EX machine gun blow with Dudley, for instance, you’re fucked)… but if you can pull it off, it can be useful. After doing so, I’d either use s. hp (hard to parry when you can’t see it), jump air dash hp or hk FLAT. Of course, invisibility is only good for those three tactics and b/c it’s risky to start up, it isn’t cheap. Just good to know that it ain’t good fer nothin.

Don’t use regular NDLs. I use them, but only from full screen and sparingly. You shouldn’t build a game plan around this move. The move you should be planning around is EX FLAT. EX NDL is better than the others, of course, but like I said don’t plan around this move. Also never do it outside of full screen range.

s. mp and s. hk are cool, but ultimately become rare. Everything they do, c. mk can do better (hits low unlike s. mp and isn’t punishable unlike s. hk). Dance with that instead. Of course, 12 doesn’t have to dance outside of sweep range when used properly and that’s why we love him.

All this and other cool tidbits of information upon inquires or requests. I’ve beaten lots of people (good people too) with 12 so I’m pretty sure with my advice you can come up with him in your arcade.

LATE


#2

Man, I’m so narcissistic. I LOVE my posts!!

Seriously. This is a good post. You should go back and read it again, you loser. This time pay attention:

In essence it says that there are three basic tactics with 12…

After learning low air dashes (perfomed by doing up forward, forward, hp (or up backward, back, hk):

  1. Jump, air dash, hp (high air dash, not low one… SO THE HP ACTUALLY HITS), then low air dash backward.

This doesn’t work initially. WHY? Because like any jump in, you’ll get anti-aired or parried. The parry, however, isn’t a concern since both j. hp AND hk (incidentally) hit either too far or high to take advantage of after parrying. Still, you can shoryuken the shit out of hp (hk trades [BONUS]).

SO TACTIC #1 needs a little conditioning to get going. HOW do we prevent anti-airing, pray tell?

YES TELL US JOE TELL US!

Tactic 2: EX FLAT. Common anti airs are Shoryuken, ground based normals, or jumping attacks. EX FLAT can snuff em all… and any that EX FLAT can’t snuff (EX uppercuts or SHINRYUKEN!! for example), you use quick drops (like j. hk) to fake out. This should actually be your primary tactic (#1), but I decided to make it 2 to include an explanation for it… THIS IS WHAT YOU BUILD AROUND… IN OTHER WORDS, YOUR BASIC GAMEPLAN!!

Anyway, once your opponen realizes “Shit, I can’t keep his ass out of the air!” they’ll sit pretty and let you take a couple of whacks… and thus we enter tactic three…

  1. Tick grab with high air dash hp… whether you hit with j. hp or not (in tactic 1), either go low upon landing (c. mk), escape as usual (low air dash backwards) or walk up and throw! In any case, get repeated knockdowns (which add to those you’ve been getting with EX FLAT already).

The combination of the three will either discourage the hell out of the opponent (more free hits) or makes him realize that the only way he’ll take you out is by IN FACT sitting pretty at full screen and calling your shots, knocking you down, then getting in your face where your only real weapons are block/parry, wake up throw and c. lp (rock paper scissors: take your pick-they all still suck). If and whenever that happens, you just have to remain steadfast and get out of that situation (GET OUT OF THE RUGT AND BACK INTO THE GROOVE!) and back into the one where you dominate with those basic three (EX FLAT, j. hp and tick throw).

HOW TO WIN WITH TWELVE IN THREE EASY STEPS. (Sounds like a catchy name for a book, huh? Heheheheh) Anyway, lets see if my brilliance (blows off fingers… how smooth?) garners any further inquiry. We’ve had so many replies already. :sweat:

A MAN OF MODESTY WITHOUT QUESTION, NO? YOU SHALL KISS MY FEET.

Eh, later. :bluu: (You should really be worshipping me, though.) :smiley:


#3

AND he quotes his own posts? WHAT KIND OF MASTURBATOR IS THIS? (Yeah, I’ve gotta get me one!)

No no, in fact… remember this. It’s yet another microcosm of the fundamental principle: just because it’s difficult to do or learn doesn’t mean it makes you good.

Take the “TWELVENETO” example in the first post. As soon as mr. scrubadub hears that, he’s gonna go (ahem) WOWWWWWW!!! JUSHT LAIK MAGNEEEETOOOO!!! I CAN BE WEELEE GOOOOOD!!!

Been there done that seen it a MILLION times in the faces of those who first see and consequently COVET the skills of a Magneto player. I SWEAR my soul leaves my body each time it happens (said soul RETURNING however after beating “EXPERT MAGNETOS” with my “UGNETO” that has no skill at all! …especially love it when they call it ugly and start yelling). INSPIRATION IS GREAT but that belonged in the previous parenthesis ANYWAY without any further rambling lets get back to the point.

INHALES

JUST as soon as you say something like “insanely hard to pull of,” someone’ll bring me 2 dozen japs and four americans who have somehow learned to do it 10 for 10 in one day. EACH ONE boasting classic yet painfully immodest and advertising 4th grade statements such as (ahem) “THAT’S NOT HARD?? I CAN DO THAT EASILY!!” even though it took them all day to fucking learn it and they know it (fucking geeks).

OKAY… so it’s easy as pie now. I STILL said it didn’t matter anyway and you hard asses whipping out the dick rulers got so hard up to enter the man contest that you forgot that I fucking said it already. Shit for brains. BUT I DIGRESS. Those of you who learned how to do it will probably end up giving up 12 anyway (you spent all that time learning it to put a head on your wall congratulations dumbfuck) and will never be known as innovatorsjust goddamn sheep ass herd mentality punk thieves.

OH WHATS THAT? HARKENS TO…? YES… THE BISON CUSTOM IN CVS2 (which even hicks in Mississippi can do now)?? OH… AND WHAT’S THAT YOU SAY?? YEAH… MAGNETO IN MvC2 (who CAN’T do a “triangle jump”??)!! Too bad Sentinel fast flys can actually be useful, or else I’d say that about him, too… all day long. FUCK, I’ll say it anyway ALL YOU FAGS WHO LEARNED FAST FLY WASTED YOUR TIME… stupid little faggot fuck wannabe nerds. Make up something of your own… kick ass with VICE or SEAN or FELICIA consistently… then I and others that discern objectively will be impressed!!! Until then, you are no match for our lofty panel of ultimate critics. Leave our sight: you sicken us… garbage.

(but you know what I’m saying, right?? :slight_smile: )


#4

which way to the bathroom? :confused:


#5

Losing to twelve in a tourney was goddamn humiliating. Local arcade owner plays him pretty well by your strats Joe, can you share your methods for beating 12?

I play Yun, btw.


#6

how can you have trouble playing against twelve if you’re yun? yun’s lunge punch basically fucks up all of twelve’s air game :lol:


#7

Thanks.

I don’t really get a lot of chance to experiment against twelve players, y’know? :rolleyes:


#8

So tell me, does this mean you don’t know what I’m saying?

…because if you think a “one line wonder” such as yourself is going to detract from what I said in the slightest, you’re a fucking dumbass. Read it again, junior. As far as I can tell, you’re another player who decided to pick a character based on how much he won.

No really, if you didn’t understand it, read it again. It’s pretty self-explanatory. If you think any points need elaboration, point them out by all means.

Yun’s lunge punch beats 12’s air game? Maybe when I’m low air dashing backwards, but what makes you think I can’t just sit there instead of doing that? Also, since the lunge punch won’t knock 12 out of the high air dash, I can switch from hp to hk (which’ll hit lunge attempts) since hp won’t reach its target anymore (which is now directly beneath him).

For that matter, I can peg Yun with jumping hk all day! He has shit for anti-air and parrying it does nothing. I can build a strategy around my old school 12 game: c. lp, jump forward and either parry or hk, land, c. lp (or tick throw after the j. hk). Which is easy on people like Yun and Yang who have shit for anti air… and if they decide to get funky, I can just c. lp, jump forward tentatively (either with parry or j. hk), land, c. lp and wait for a stupid EX dp attempt (or something equally as stupid) and hit it while it lands.

Anything that can actually knock me out of the air doesn’t detract from the 3 tactics (which AREN’T built around being in the air… but built around AIR ENFORCEMENT like EX FLAT). All I have to do about a repeatedly used anti-air is counter it or stay on the ground and make sure it doesn’t happen. Your lunge punch strategy is very akin to what every shoto does to my 12 when I air dash around a lot: Hadouken… so what do I do? I either EX FLAT them from trying, walk under it (meaning wait on the ground instead) or EX NDL then parry. THREE counters for one supposedly “game breaking” move. Now if I can counter something from across the screen, what makes you think I wouldn’t be able to fuck someone up for throwing themselves at me?

Come on, now… give me something I can’t work with. Punk.


#9

People shouldn’t take Zaza’s bluster seriously. It isn’t posturing, he really is this blunt in real life.

You should just understand that it’s hard to imagine this unless you’ve played against it. I have and take it from me, it’s fucking frustrating. Psychic FLAT > psychic DPs!

But I can beat his 12 with Cunt Lips so :smiley: Low forward fishing for LIFE…


#10

what the hell? i was just asking where the hell the bathroom was… why you trying to flame me for? :frowning:


#11

:eek:

TWELVE IS GOOD!

That is all. :sweat:


#12

Twelve blows.

That is all.

Seriously though, cmon Zaza, he’s not good. I know you’re just trying to give hope to a sucky character but still. Nice posts though.

Yun can shut down much of Twelve’s air game with EX uppercut kicks. Anytime he’s flying toward you and not on the other half of the screen just throw it out. They’re quick and have good horizontal range and being able to tackle on another hit afterwards, generally lunge punch, does nice damage and allows you to stay close over a knocked down Twelve. Plus even if you whiff, most of the time you are too far away from Twelve for him to do much other then sweep. It’s also possible to do another EX kick uppercut and then another move but I forget the conditions for it. Maybe only one hit of the first EX can hit or something. Anyway, the rest of the time, if you don’t feel like chasing him, just hit low strong to build meter and jump back fierce when he gets above you. Avoid getting hit by random jump fierces and just outturtle him if you want too. If you feel like chasing him, just walk after him most of the time. You don’t really need to jump after Twelve. You could probably just do random palms and at worst trade hugely in your favor with most anything he does. (yeah, I know THEORY FIGHTER) Personally, I’d pick Sourai-Rengeki or however you spell it against Twelve cause 1) you get lots of meter 2) you can super on reaction to low strong or low shortx2 hitting and 3) I can’t use Genei-Jin. :stuck_out_tongue: Yes, this is a simple strategy and no, it doesn’t mean Yun wins for free.

However, I stand by the statement Twelve blows. Wolverine’s not bad though. :slight_smile:


#13

how’s it going edma…coming to ECC this year too? had a blast playing against your ken. i’ve gotten better just for you! :smiley:

and would someone fucking answer my question already?

where’s the goddamned bathroom!?!?@!#&^!~~~~!@!@!@


#14

i personally like to use 12 annoys ken users …

any way i use XFLAT … flashy but retarded


#15

Twelve is not an easy character to win in tournaments.

The way I play Twelve involves a lot of ground poking, a lot of throwing (heheh :p), and anti-air pokes (e.g. lp and mp, hp good for damage but has longer startup).

Mixing up instant air-dash -> LP poke and UOH works wonders, since they both look identical, and it can confuse (annoy :smiley: ) peeps to block high or low.

If you’re playing against DP anti-air lovers, Twelve’s air-dash can come into play to bait them into doing missed DPs. e.g. jump torwards then quickly back air-dash, or do low instant-air dash -> jump HK very close.

If you feel particularly skillful, and flashy, low.LK -> LP.AXE -> XNDL is a good way to get the woos from the crowd :cool:


#16

great post JOE!!! teaching me everything I have to know inorder to play 12 :evil:


#17

Maybe I’ve never seen a good Twelve in play. Maybe I’ve never even seen a half-assed decent Twelve in play. I will concede this. But in every single Twelve video I’ve ever seen, be it Japanese or American, our binary-speaking, number-named hero seems to do at least between 50-75% of his damage just by random throwing, and gets knocked around when he tries to do much else.

That doesn’t really give me much faith in him as a character.


#18

12 is directly counter charactered by Bruce Dickinson.


#19

Can Twelve link two crouching shorts? If so, can he:

cr. short, cr. short xx XNDL?


#20

Whether he can or cannot, the immediate question I would have is: Why would you?

If you’re too far away, there’s a huge risk of the opponent coming out of hitstun and having your SA miss. I wouldn’t risk it. If anything, you might as well (sitting) short xx jab whippy hands xx SA1. It’s a guaranteed combo, and you have all day to hit-check.

N