As much as I hate Edgelord Black, aesthetically, it might do my comp some good to have a beam assist.
If you’re looking for an anchor with a beam maybe give Tien a shot, his beam isn’t as fast but it’s is one hit so you can use it for longer comboes and he does mad damage with supers (albeit at a cost).
That being said he’s inherently risky due to him having to burn health (or Chiaotzu) on supers.
I remember that. I also remember them saying that the best assist would have longer cooldown periods.
Issues I see in the neutral game:
Meter is too easy to come by. The charge mechanic is absolutely useless. When it’s so easy to gain meter, it makes zoning almost impossible since you can almost always use a bar to vanish around it. Right now all people are doing is rushing down. My #3 will explain this in detail. Meter gain needs a 30% decrease.
Super dash is too viable. You can 2H it when grounded, but when in the air and at point blank range it’s a different story. There needs to be options that stop it in the air consistently to discourage abuse. I’ve notice people will tag out when you jump since stopping a dashing teammate coming in is extremely difficult to punish at that point. Super dash is also too accurate. It will even turn around and track a vanish or even a switched teammate coming in.
Chip damage is way too low. The reason people are doing nothing but Rush-down is because you get basically nothing off of projectile use. There needs to be viable strategies for using chip as a way to win. With that said, there needs to be ground AND air options to fully negate chip damage. Like in guilty gear with faultless defense to negate chip and push your opponent away from you while using your meter as a resource for that option.
Most projectiles/attacks are homogeneous in their output. A character like Piccolo with a slow projectile should have high projectile durability since its slow and you can super dash right by it. The same with Beerus’ orbs. This system should be fully implemented into the game:
This would make All the characters stand out more and match-up experience would be needed more for each individual. Currently, everything just cancels each other out, which is extremely boring.
This is true, but only with what we know so far. We still haven’t had a meta defining early team come up. Just characters that are strong that are thrown together.
Till a good meta team comes about that stacks synergies and the sum of its parts get stronger when coupled to its teammates, it’s hard to make any general calls on the game.
Like yeah, most characters seem to play the same, but if you look at their movelist with regards to specials, ex moves, S button functionality and and varying properties of normal moves, there’s ALOT of differences in the cast it’s just that the game is being played at such a basic level right now that it’s going to come off homogenous for the most part because no one really knows how to make use of the non basic shit yet.
I really doubt we will see something other than in-your-face pure rushdown in this game as things stand. Zoning is pretty much completely out of the question with homings, vanishes and deflects. At most you can pressure some with them and use beams as long range pokes into vanish combos, but a true defensive strategy around zoning will not work.
And with how limited defensive options are and how easy it is to get in… just why not go and rush? There are no invincible backdashes, no pushblock, no chicken block since you are vulnerable during prejump, guardcancels are not very effective and meterless invincible moves are scarce. Couple that with assist pressure and I think all points to pure offense, and the dominating characters so far (Cell, 18, Vegeta, etc) take advantage of that very well. At least before some major system tweaks in a revision I don’t see strategies changing that much, at most some characters will shift around if someone finds better ways to do that offense than what’s currently known.
One thing that really boggles my mind is the lack of a pushblock mechanic. Guilty Gear has Faultless Defense, Marvel has pushblocking, but here with so many ways to get in there’s no such mechanic. I think the addition of pushblock would make the game more interesting than it is right now with all the easy pressure.
does swatting s.dash with j.normals even give any combos? i’ve gotten OK at hitting them with character’s j.h’s, but you don’t seem to get anything out of it…besides probably dopey j.h - vanish shit.
Thoery stuff, but it depends on the air normal and the opponent’s height. jL could work and you can just do the autocombo double jump varient… but hitbox is meh. jM seems reliable, and the pathway becomes “opponent is lower than you = jMLL” or “opponent is higher than you = jM (double jump) jMLL” into 2H or H depending on comfort.
That’s how it is in the anime and don’t think it’s a bug. Goku had the same thing happened to him in the show.
Yeah, I’m not saying that heavy zoning will ever take place, what I’m saying is that we still don’t really know what offense is in this game when a team is put together well, or how the neutral “really” plays. As an example, gotenks has beams and Ki Blasts and he has a beam cancel that puts him midair and allows him to do an overhead into a full combo, he also has an aerial Ki Blast that he can cancel into a pseudo jump by holding forward, he also has plus on block normal specials, which is a rarity.
Teen Gohan has an aerial Ki Blast that is plus on block and has some crazy good corner carry in general.
Ginyu still hasn’t been figured out. Etc.
As far as pushblock, to me it makes sense actually. The mixups in this game aren’t THAT good. In marvel as an example it’s rare to see someone block a move 3 times in a row… the mixups are just way to good in that game.
In dbfz, it’s not the blocking mixups that define the game, it’s the pressure and frame traps. You are supposed to have to hold that pressure. But the gapped pressure can be parried… that’s dbfz. People just aren’t doing it yet that much. As time goes on we may see a lot more “parries” come into the game. Also, it’s totally possible to play a more grounded game if superdash is messing with your aerial game.
I do actually wish that super dash were toned down against Ki Blasts though. For me the perfect compromise is kinda like sf5. Make it so that a good amount of startup frames don’t go through Ki Blasts, that way the opponent has to make a good read.
So apparently this thing was made by Japanese tournament players:
I mean, it’s probably correct-ish for week two, but I can’t see the list staying this way.
- The meta has been set in place because of how easy meter is to come by, very restrictive defensive options and easy to use counter-measures to zoning. There’s barely any chip damage even if you were to use 7 level one super beams in a row.
- A mechanic like faultless defense would keep people from going auto-pilot once you’re in block-stun. FD uses meter and it would make discission-making more dynamic. With an overall decrease in meter gain and other tools requiring meter, players would have to really choose what’s important to them.
- Once in block-stun, it doesn’t matter. there’s needs to be back-n-forth options for every aspect of the game. Once again, once they’re in block-stun, you can 100% go auto-pilot. That’s weak and will get monotonous to look at/play against. Faultless Defense makes players think about block-strings more.
- That won’t work in that way because shooting Ki-blast will last longer than the invul frames. Super Dash going through KBs is fine, but it should only be KB invincible. Everything else should knock you out of it. It also should have less tracking.
Yo goku blue on the level of gohan and goku black
I think people should just stop talking about DBZF with MVC strats in mind.
I agree with what Sonixfox said. Assist long cooldown, DHC usually being the best way to finish an opponent and no practical TOD means you’ll have to play other characters than your first. You cant’ rely on one point character in this game. It just doesn’t work.
As for Vegeta assist, it is indeed strong. It has several exploitable drawbacks though : you can try a reflect after the last fireball. You can Super Dash. You can guard cancel inside it. Not to mention using it to lockdown a down opponent is giving him free meter if he reflect the whole sequence. I’m sure people will start to find ways around it.
yeah, the once i have you on block in the corner and i can just start to pressure flowchart meta is very frustrating to play against.
especially since it can start from a low safe on block jab (android18) which even advances you forward. (ed.- seems like its actually a mid which advances you forward, my bad)
reflect is the key to get out there but spamming it will just lead to you wiffing one and allowing your opponent to continue the pressure
so its important to learn to time and properly use it and to get the best out of it even when its it might just setting things up to neutral.
i hope with some time the game evolves to more then just rushdown and corner lockdown being the way to go.
Remember when they said they will take power levels into account and everyone said ‘‘they are just saying this to appease power level people’’. But now that the game is out I realized all the sayians have generally better moves than humans. People talk about Vegetas assist but if you would disable assists Vegeta would probably still be a better char to pick then Yamcha or Tenshinhan. Is it a coincidence Yamcha and Tenshinhan have slow crouching mediums that have low range, while Trunks and Gohan have fast slides? For assists it seems they just took one move from a char and again, the Sayians just have better moves.
The problem I feel is that even characters with kinda unique tools just don’t have what it takes. Like for example Piccolo. His homing ball is slow and gets rekt by super dash or any random beam. His demon slicer is tough to use as a counter and can get blown up by c.H. His elbow is meant as a left-right mixup but it is so telegraphed a decent player will easily counter it with a jab. His comand grab can occasionaly catch someone, but again way too slow. His normals have nice range but so do Cells, who just has overall better moves and damage. Slayer slide that is faster and safe on block? Why? Piccolo as a ‘‘technical’’ char just doesn’t offer anything unique or a different enough playstyle. Frieza is the designated zoner but zoning in this game is pretty much non-existant. The only reason to pick the dedicated ‘‘zoner’’ of the game is to go ham with golden form and sparkling. Just yesterday I won 1v3 with gold Frieza as last char, and it’s really fun but again, does nothing differently, just more pressure and rushdown and other characters are just overall better. Yamcha as a Leo style character doesn’t work. His wolf fang fist is way too slow and telegraphed and as time goes on will never work against any decent player. You pick him because he has a good jumping H.
The only character that I feel has some undiscovered potential yet is Ginyu. But he is probably just low tier and a gimmick. I mean, I really like this game and it’s a blast to play. But I feel like it still needs a lot of work. Not just the online stuff, but the characters and gameplay need to be a bit ironed out too.
That tier list looks pretty solid in my opinion. I would personally move Adult Gohan up there with Cell and A16, and move Goku Blue down to A-tier and that’s it. I have been watching a stream of ChrisG where he said that Ginyu is trash and that he is just missing something (even though Chris was owning ranked with him), so I find it interesting that the Japanese have also put him the lowest.
Also I really hope the pros figure out some way to use the less represented characters. The universal game mechanics make it so that every character has a fighting chance, which is amazing for casual play because you can win with whomever you want. But at the same time, there doesn’t seem to be much reason to pick anything other than the top characters at the highest level.
Vegeta strikes me more as UMvC3 Dr. Doom and less MvC2 CapCom. He can compete with the top tier solo characters even though he’s clearly outclassed by them (unlike Commando who’ll get rolled pretty bad by the god tiers), but you still pick him for his great assist, not as a standalone character.
I’d love to see ArcSys look at the assist system in general though. Giving worse assists shorter cooldowns would be an easy way to improve them.
I look at reflect like instant blocking in BB/GG, but those games also have good defensive options when you’re actually blocking.They all require some sort of finite resource, so players have to allows think about what they’re using and when.