Dudley Q&A: Let's learn... like Gentlemen!

hey quick question guys… why is it that people are always saying st.hk x ex duck is +1 on block?

mathematically, it should be +0 on block whenever it hits on the first active frame(which is almost always except for specific characters and setups right?)
st.hk : 3 active frames, 15 recovery frames, +0 on block
ex duck: 17 frames total

since st.hk is +0 on block, if you hit on the first active frame it should leave you with:
2 active frames + 15 recovery frames = 17 frames of total recovery left.
since the move is +0 on block that means there are 17 frames of block stun.

now if you cancel on the first active frame, that means you go immediately into ex duck which coincidentally is also 17 frames.
so 17 frames of block stun and 17 frame ex duck should means +0.

this is verifiable in training mode using the basic “jump test” style frame testing.

basically it goes like this:

  1. go into training mode with 2 dudley (has to be same character to check frames)
  2. set dummy to all block
  3. do st.hk x ex duck and press pause during ex duck animation
  4. set dummy to jump
  5. hold up to jump as you unpause
  6. compare which dudley is earlier or higher in the jump

you will notice that both dudleys are jumping at the exact same time.
you can check the frame advantage of any move in the game that doesn’t kd this way.

i checked this for standing and crouching block as well as at different distances and it always seems to be +0.

please let me know if any of my logic is wrong, but this would greatly explain why a perfectly timed throw by the opponent will pretty much always beat your perfectly timed cr.lp after the ex duck (or at least force an os crouch tech)

I believe that unlike the transition from startup to active frames (the first active frame is the same as the last startup frame), the recovery frames are counted after the last active frame.

I was wondering about cross counter and AA. One of the best feature of srk as anti air (shoto’s version) is that it’s invincible from the first frame. Meaning that as long as you did it before you actually blocked any attack, it will beat it (as last moment hit). Actually, the longer you delay it, the better chance it has to beat the jump in clean.
Dudley’s antiairs suffer a little bit in that regard as s.mk is 6 frames and his dps are around 6-4 frames with no invincibility.
Cross counter is actually active after 1 frame, meaning you can do it quite later and it will beat most of those jumps, I will experiment with it, see where it takes me.

I feel that dud usually doesn’t feel that aa problem as he shouldn’t relay too much on big slow normal in his footsies (maybe in cr.mk situations it can be good)

no that is not true. all frames in a move are exactly the same except the properties in place while they are occurring. in this example, the only difference between his active and recovery frames is that there is a hitbox during the 3 active frames, and none during recovery. the hit/block stun is always the same (excluding CH) no matter which active frame you hit on. this is why meaty moves on wake up give you a higher frame advantage than normal, because they are hitting on a later active frame.

anti air normals are always kind of slow. but you don’t need to input a motion so that technically saves you 1 - 2 frames depending on initial stick position.
that said, mk is one of the best anti airs in the game. it is super reliable and brainless on timing.
don’t forget about cr.rh. this is a gdlk anti air vs characters that don’t have low hitting jump ins and don’t know to push their buttons later in the jump.

dudley srk’s are actually 5 frames (lp,mp) 3 frames(hp) and 4 frames(ex).
4f invincible srk is actually not that much different than a 3f one other than vs safe jumps.
shoto dp generally have a much better horizontal hit box than dudley’s though :frowning:
still lp dp goes into huge damage with meter or ultra.

cross counter is active on frame 3.
it is actually really good but you can’t use it too consistently because a smart player can empty jump to bait it.
ex comboing into u2 has won me lots of games though since they forget you have this move.
the other bonus is that when people jump from close and you do this, you get autocorrect dp if they cross you up (a situation that makes your other dps and anti airs whiff)

its nice when you learn to see if they made a good jumpin because then you can punish almostevery late jump attacl in with cross counter

I don’t think you understood where I was getting at. In the meaty setups section that 34 went over, every whiffed move calculated as taking the S + A + R then subtracting 1 because the hitbox appears on the lasts startup frame, which is also the first active frame. The transition from active to recovery is counted differently because the first recovery frame is when the hitbox disappears, in other words active and recovery don’t share a frame like startup and active do. This was all to address whether or st.hk into ex duck is + 1 on block or +0 on block when counting frame data

       S    A   R

St.HK 4 3 15

StHK(S + A) = 4 + 3 -1 = 6
StHK(A + R) = Just 3 + 15 = 18

(A + R) - Ex Duck = + 1

Checked other sources to make sure that myself and everyone else who says st HK xx Ex duck is +1 aren’t crazy

Basic frame data guide for newbies take an example straight from SRK’s SFIV Ryu Wiki:

"The frame-relevant columns in the table are Startup, Active, Recovery, Frames On Guard, Total, Frames On Hit, Frames of Block Stun and Frames of Hit Stun
For Ryu’s Far Light Punch, the respective values for the move’s phases are:
4 Startup frames
3 Active frames
6 Recovery frames

The convention in frame guides is to include the first frame of the active phase of the move in it’s startup (apparently because some people find it hard to add 1 to a number). So when you see a move has a 4 frame startup, it actually means it takes 3 frames to startup and hits on frame 4. This is also incidentally what people mean when they refer to “X” frame moves. X just represents the first frame of the move’s active phase (ie. the first frame it’s capable of hitting the opponent). In this case, Ryu’s Far LP is a 4 frame move. The frame data also says the active phase of Far LP lasts for 3 frames, which means that it’s capable of hitting an opponent for 3 frames in it’s life span. The 6 frames of recovery should be obvious.

The next column represents the move’s total lifespan in terms of frames. In this case, it’s 12. “But 4 + 3 + 6 = 13!!” I hear you say. That’s true but remember that the first frame of a move’s active phase is included in the startup! So it’s actually 3 + 3 + 6"

From there it should be obvious that the last active frame isn’t counted as the first recovery frame and vice versa, which means that st.hk (being + 0 on block) causes 18 frames of block stun, which means that cancelling into ex duck gives you a frame advantage of +1

StHk(A + R) = 3 + 15 = 18
Ex Duck = 17

18 - 17 = 1

@MochaLatte
The first active frame isn’t included in the calculation because the cancel doesn’t start until you’ve hit. It’s not related to the way startup is listed. This means that the correct math here is 2+15=17. Dudley is at 0 frame advantage after the EX Duck cancel.

oh my bad i misunderstood what you wrote.
yeah you are right, only start up shares a frame with active frame.

but i think your frame counting is still flawed.

hit and block stun go into affect on the next frame, not the first active frame that makes contact.

for example:
st.hk has 3 active frames.
it hits on active frame 1.
block stun starts counting on active frame 2.
so block stun actually is 2 + 15 = 17. (not 18)
ex duck = 17 frames
17 - 17 = 0

it doesn’t really matter though, you can start counting on the first active frame if you want but in that case you need to apply that same logic to the frames when you cancel.
for example:
st.hk has 3 active frames.
you cancel on active frame 1. (this active frame is also the 1st block stun frame in your equation. cancelling doesn’t magically make the 1st active frame disappear, only the following frames.)
which leaves 17 left.
ex duck = 17
17 - 17 = 0

you don’t have to believe the math though.

simply do the frame data jump test that i described.
you’ll see it’s impossible to get the ex ducking dudley to jump before the blocking dudley.
this means they are frame neutral in that situation.

@SHODAN‌
damn your straight to the point style beat me to it lol.

hmmm this is such a big misconception within the dudley community that i wonder if i should have made a new thread topic for it.

Coulda sworn the first active frame contributes to block stun, if it doesn’t then you’re totally right.

The jump test is a tough one as well because it’s a 1f difference, even if it’s paused it would still be really tough to discern the difference by eye

no 1 frame is really easy to tell actually. that’s why it’s a good test.

if you want to see what +1 looks like.
just do the same test, but have the dummy block an overhead f.hk instead.

if you pause while they are jumping, it’s very obvious lol.

Another point to note is that if you’re right about st hk into ex duck being 0, then sthk into lk duck should be -3 . Meaning a 3 frame reversal would punish it. If you can’t punish sthk into normal duck w a 3f reversal, then that means it’s -2. By that logic, the ex version should end with +1 since it’s 3f faster. This would also prove whether or not the first active frame contributes to block stun.

yep. that’s very true. and st.hk x lk duck is in fact -3 and can always be punished by reversal fp jet upper.

Yup, tested it. Less frame advantage than I previously believed = a feeling of sadness upon me

So how do you guys feel about Dudley’s changes in Ultra? Considering switching back to him now that I understand the game more.

He got some unnecessary things like cr lp and st up buffs.the only ones I agree with are the fmk and counter st hk fixes. He needs less recovery on his mp and hk ssb to make them safe and better for oki, st hk into ex duck should be +1 or +2 on block. Force stand on fwrd hp and dart shot (or fix the reeling animations that make his follow ups whiff for no reason)

There is a video on the main forum thread for Ultra where someone analyzes his new buffs and explains why they should or should not be implemented and what other tweaks should be added. It’s probably more work than CAPCOM put into this character, and takes a fair approach at changes that have or should be implemented. His cross counter is compared to Juri and Gouken’s similar moves, and the narrator makes a valid claim based upon these comparisons and others for changes.

s.HK DS Ex Duck is 0 on block.
Math and frame data lead to +1, but Simply knowing Lk duck is -3 on block after s.hk and ex being 3f faster than lk gets you to the right answer.

I knew for a while. After blockstrings. soz.

Tut.

[quote=“Monkey_Tamer, post:3362, topic:97280”]

There is a video on the main forum thread for Ultra where someone analyzes his new buffs and explains why they should or should not be implemented and what other tweaks should be added. It’s probably more work than CAPCOM put into this character, and takes a fair approach at changes that have or should be implemented. His cross counter is compared to Juri and Gouken’s similar moves, and the narrator makes a valid claim based upon these comparisons and others for changes.

[/quote]

Just skimming through this video, I disagree with a lot of what he has written.

i didn’t skim through the video, i agree with a lot of what’s been written.