Elena Wiki

elena

#1

Remember that old thread I had? “The New Elena Thread”? Yeah, well I finished my strategy guide that I used in that thread, and put it on the wiki. Discuss.

http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Elena_(3S)


#2

Done a quick read through it, but it’s OK so far, though you should change the ‘writing style’ and make it more ‘formal’ in a way.


#3

I can’t believe you don’t use s.LK

it’s +4 on block! I use it to set up traps. Additionally, b+HK is also +4 on block, meaning you can set up really solid pressure after these moves are blocked.

s.LK -> grab
s.LK c.LP -> grab
s.LK -> b+HK
s.LK -> c.MP
s.LK -> UOH
s.LK -> dash -> s.LK

whatever

s.LK and b+HK are the only moves to give elena advantage on block. You should definitely be integrating s.LK into your game.


#4

I just can’t think of any place to use it in my strategy - when I get that close up, it’s usually to play wakeup games, and if I try to do a S.Lk on wakeup, I’ve effectively given them more time to prepare and react to something I’m gonna do, while limiting a few of my b&b options on wakeup - in particular, going for an overhead after S.Lk is pretty much pointless, especially UOH, since the biggest advantage of UOH is that you can combo a meaty C.Mp or SA2 afterwards. In any case, it’s much better in my opinion (if you’re playing wakeup games, or even resets) to just go straight for whatever move you want to throw out next (high/low/throw/stuff/block). It gives your opponent one less thing to block or parry.

Otherwise…what else do you think it’s good for? I’m interested in seeing what ideas there are, but I don’t agree with the way I see a lot of players use it.


#5

i don’t know what exactly are your wakeup games but c.lk f+mk shouldn’t be one of the things to use in offens patterns on the wakeup or at least not really often…a good ken will punish your f+mk, even if you hit on reaction.

for the s.lk its really good and should be used by any elena player in her wakeup game. first of all it gives you 2 frames advantage what means it’s still up to you to make the pressure. the other thing is it’s one of her best tickthrows and as soon as you opponent notes that you can fuck him up with a short walkup and beat his tech attempt with the b+hk…and thats really only one of the nice things you can try after the standing lk

the best thing you can do with elena when you got your opponent in the corner is keeping them there with some nice throw mixups and wait for their srk and stuff to block and punish it


#6

who said anything about c.lk f+mk?

s.lk is just pure pressure yo. ever see chun li do a couple walk up c.jabs for pressure? or a dudley do a couple of walk up punches (i think they’re standing strongs, but I wouldn’t know I don’t play dudley) your opponent is basically in a position where he can do nothing but reversal, parry or block. That’s amazing! poking with s.lk is a great way to keep control of the match. elena is all mind games and s.lk is just pure mind game material.

let’s say i score a knockdown, then i dash in and do f+mk, he gets hit, then i kara throw them. now they’re scared, cause i’m dashing up again and they’re gonna block high. I grab them, dash in and s.lk their knees while they try and mash throw, they get hit, go what the fuck? then get thrown again. that’s all their life.

you can do other things with standing short. you train your opponent into block relfex with it, then you can start whiffing it before they get up and bait a reversal. if they do nothing, then they planned on blocking and you can throw them since they’re not even in blockstun.

have you ever played cvs2? that game all about run in jab jab jab pressure or low short low short low short pressure.

you’ve seen ken use c.lk pressure?

elena’s s.lk works similarly, you just use it to lock your opponent down and keep them constantly guessing. you can’t always just execute your mixup on your opponent. what if they’re standing? people will see that shit from a mile away and bust a low strong/low forward/back fierce in your face. if you get in range to s.short them though, you can short and it’ll hit them before they hit you. and from there you can do whatever you want.

standing short trains opponents to block. just like b+HK. get close to your opponent then back roundhouse. if they throw -> back roundhouse, if they low forward -> back roundhouse. if they block -> +4 frames free f+mk/low forward mixup/dash in back roundhouse again mixup.


#7

I can tell from just this paragraph that you play a completely different Elena than I do; I would never even BE in a situation with Elena where I’m close enough to hit my opponent with S.Lk, unless I’ve knocked them down or reset them. If I try to go on the offensive, it starts with a knockdown or a reset.

Okay, but in that case, why not just sweep them, do another overhead, or stuff them with C.Mp XX Ex Spin Scythe? Hell, what if you decide that the best option to go for first is a low, like a sweep? S.Lk just doesn’t seem as effective of a way to keep the pressure on someone during wakeup - you really need to keep the knockdowns coming.

Besides that, there are two things to keep in mind:

  1. When playing wakeup games as Elena, you want to stand as far away as you possibly can while keeping all your options (F.Mk/UOH, C.Hk, kara-throw, C.Mp, Block) - this is too far away to use S.Lk. Hell, if your opponent likes to roll wakeup, you still lose a lot of options anyways, but you ESPECIALLY will lose S.Lk.

Also,

  1. People who are experienced in fighting Elena will start going for the parries very quickly; in this instance, S.Lk is really not much safer than anything else.

Besides my belief that you should be standing too far away to use that tactic effectively, I find it better to confuse the opponent by continuously tapping crouch, so that absolutely no choice you make is clearly telegraphed.

If your opponent is standing, then no, you really can’t do your mixup on the opponent. Using it to pressure them so you can try something else goes really bad, really often. Check this video out:

[media=youtube]6hFZgwTKdVk[/media]

This is the very first video I even looked for. Top level Elena play. You’ll notice that Combofiend almost never tries to get close unless he’s knocked his opponent down; when he tried to go in and pressure with S.Lk, it either went bad, or he could have done something better…for example, if you dash in and then do S.Lk tick…why didn’t you just dash in and throw? If your opponent throws out a move that beats S.Lk, it would definitely beat a throw, and besides that, Elena’s throw has faster startup time than S.Lk.


#8

that’s part of the problem then, elena has many many many more option than just the 5 you’ve outlined. you’re removing those from her game, simplifying her and getting yourself parried.

where’s your baiting throws game? where’s your block pressure game? where’s your crossup game?

if you’re always cowgirling on wakeup then you’ve limited yourself to 5 options. don’t you ever go for the crossup? don’t you walk into their throw range then walk just outside their throw range as they get up? Half of the wakeup game is baiting your opponent, in fact i’d say everyone does this first, they bait the reversal. why? cause it’s safe it costs you exactly nothing if you wait a couple frames and bait the reversal and the benefits of baiting the reversal lead to free punishment options.

after that’s out of the way you can still do everything you normally can, only that much more safely, you won’t be comitted to anything and assuming your moves aren’t too slow then you won’t have to worry about uppercuts/supers stuffing your wakeup options.

that’s the benefit of moving back and forth on wakeup over crouching up/down, you screw with your opponents spacing. you walk into throw range, out of throw range, into c.mk range, out of c.mk range. your position is always changing.

honestly, i don’t know why you’d just stick to one form of mixup. elena is all about mixups and you want to limit them. if you add walking back/forth to your game and crossups to your game and block pressure to your game, you’re gonna find you’re gonna get parried a lot less and will have 15 other ways to fuck with your opponent


#9

why are you argumenting to me?
actually i was on your side and tried to bring it with a few examples to skankin:D
you just read the first sentence of my post correct?


#10

i’m just curious why you brought it up, nobody even mentioned that string.


#11

Okay, wait a minute…

  1. Baiting Throws is a MIXUP? What exactly is that a mixup OF? NOT baiting throws? Besides the fact that I NEVER see a good Elena player baiting throws (because you simply DON’T get in that range against people unless they’re incapacitated), it’s not exactly an aspect of Elena’s - or anyone’s - mixup game. It’s simply a tactic that anyone can do; yet, it’s not a tactic that everyone SHOULD do - I see no reason to do it with Elena. Even then, the way I handle wakeup game leaves me completely safe from all throws except Chun-Li’s kara-throw and Hugo’s 360’s, but you want to be wary when getting up in their face any damn way.

  2. Block Pressure is also not a mixup to anything, and certainly in no way imperative to my strategy. Hell, Combofiend himself demonstrates in that video I posted just how inept it can be to just try and rush in on someone and put pressure. If Combofiend didn’t score some sort of knockdown when he was in close, he would almost ALWAYS B+Hk to safety, or went for a throw (knockdown). In every case he didn’t, save for like once or twice, it didn’t do him much good at all, and sometimes, it was even detrimental for him. And this is even true versus ORO, which is a matchup highly in Elena’s favor. Block pressure is really not much use in Elena’s game.

  3. Crossup is a mixup, sure…but it’s not exactly…sneaky, or anything. No one thinks you’re gonna jump in on your opponent’s wakeup and NOT cross them up (If you’re not talking about it in this context, then it ALSO wouldn’t be a part of her mixup game, so I’m going to assume you are). I think the crossup is cool in the specific instance that your opponent is cornered - if you time the crossup right on your opponent’s wakeup in the corner, it’ll force them out of the corner. It’s a great trick to pull out every now and then.

Other than that situation, I have five other options that will do me a whole lot better without being incredibly obvious.

  1. LIMIT myself to FIVE options? You realize that Elena was one of the best wakeup games in 3S, save for Chun-Li with meter? Not everyone has five completely viable options. I would hesitate to say I’m limiting myself.

  2. Yeah, I use the crossup in the instance I described.

  3. No, I don’t walk into their throw range to bait a throw, when I could simply kara-throw them right as they get up. It’s a lot easier to catch people with it, since my strategy gives my opponent the tendency to become parry-happy.

  4. Who said I never baited the reversal? You don’t think people EVER try to reverse what I do? What did you think one of the five options I mentioned was, after all? High/Low/Throw/Stuff/Block. The block is specifically for anticipating a reversal attempt. I stay close enough that my opponent can land a reversal if I attempt a move. I’d say that’s baiting a reversal quite well. There’s absolutely no reason to try and bait throws with the way I play Elena.

I agree with this mostly; however, as I stated above, baiting reversals is indeed a part of my game…one that doesn’t necesitate the use of S.Lk. You should really go read the rest of my strategy section, so we’re clear on exactly what I do when I play as Elena.

I would never want to move out of someone’s C.Mk range, as that means I’m out of range for mostly any part of my mixup game that would be good. I’d rather be always IN it, anyways, so that when I anticipate that my opponent is gonna wakeup with some ridiculous not-reversal attack, I can just stuff it with C.Mp XX Ex Spin Scythe. High/Low/Throw/Stuff/Block. This combo will whiff if I hit a crouching opponent from that far away, thus erasing one of my options. Otherwise, I don’t want to get in my opponent’s throw range already, for reasons I’ve already discussed.

The only opponent where I think your argument holds definite merit is versus Chun-Li, where EX Spin Scythe will always whiff her when she’s crouching; in which case, yeah, you want to bait a C.Mk so you can tag her with C.Mp XX SA2.

That comment actually made me think…another reason I personally don’t like trying to bait moves like a C.Mk is because I DON’T use SA2 primarily - I only use it on Chun-Li primarily. In the case of using SA2 more frequently, I can see where what you’re saying is very effective; however, there’s no doubt that it still eliminates a lot of her options on wakeup to be that far away. I use SA3 primarily, anyways, so I need to be closer than that on wakeup to do any damage.

In any case, I’m also not exactly sure what this has to do with S.Lk…

  1. Baiting throws and block pressure are not mixups at all, and completely useless to the way I play Elena, not to mention Baiting throws has absolutely nothing to do with S.Lk, which is what I thought was at the core of our argument anyways.

  2. Crossups as part of a wakeup mixup are only very practical in the corner; otherwise, they’re very telegraphed. If you’re talking about going for the crossup cold turkey, that’s not only not a mixup, but it really isn’t a good way to get in and pressure someone. Top Elena players don’t even use it to get in and pressure with it - they use it to get in and go for a throw, or to bait some random attack and stuff it with Back Roundhouse. That, by the way, is definitely a mixup. Is that what you were talking about? If so, I also don’t really know what this has to do with S.Lk.

  3. My strategy lends itself to people trying to parry me a lot, but who says I get my shit parried all day? If my strategy brought me such shitty results, do you think I’d get on a wiki and reccomend it to people? I think that doing what you suggested would constantly put me in more danger. The neat thing about my strategy is how incredibly safe it is, as well as effective. Trying to get so close and be so aggressive with Elena is just bad news, in my opinion.


#12

How is throw baiting not a mixup. you mix up throw baits with actual throws. They gotta guess if you gonna throw or trying to bait them. If thats not a mixup i dont know what is. And good elenas do throw baiting all the time, that basicly what her game revolves around and what alot of chracters are based around. And why would you not put block pressure on. Block pressure leads to mix-up. Elena has a retty good block pressure game with her overheads and tick throw set up. If youre scared there gonna srk or something just bait that shit and do one of elenas beefy combos. How do you play elena anyway how the hell are you supposed to go into mixups with any pressure or wakeup games, poking from afar can only get you so far.


#13

The way my mixup works is that I’m close enough to throw them (kara-throw), but not close enough for them to throw me; that way, it’s not only that they have to guess ‘throw or bait’, but rather, they have to guess, ‘throw, overhead, sweep, or bait’ while being too far away to throw me or punish me with short-ranged attacks effectively. With this in mind, it’s very easy to see why baiting a throw is a less effective idea when you take my particular strategy into account.

If you want to see how I play, refer to the wiki, rather than just the thread.

Guhh…I would also refer you to the video I just posted, where Combofiend attempts to put block pressure on his opponent rather uneffectively in comparison to when he just simply goes for a knockdown via sweep or throw. Block Pressure leads to a fair mixup game, sure; however, the real mixup game for Elena comes after scoring a knockdown. If you have proof of other good Elena players using block pressure incredibly effectively, I’d love to see it; however, I’ve never seen anything quite like that. In fact, quite the opposite - I’ve seen plenty of Elena players be MORE successful by playing a pure turtle style than a pure rushing style. I think the best way to be is a very passive aggressive manner.

In fact, here’s a whole shitload of high level Elena play - feel free to tell me where you see Elena using block pressure incredibly well:


(Combofiend videos - the most aggressive high level Elena player)

[media=youtube]GGsuTVBCVZs[/media]

[media=youtube]6hFZgwTKdVk[/media]

[media=youtube]rKy7qAly5vU[/media]

[media=youtube]D2sKLWWfjpQ[/media] <-- Admittedly, there was some sweet block-pressuring in this one, but there’s a reason Combofiend was so aggressive - as good as Marneto is, he clearly doesn’t have a lot of experience fighting Elena. For that reason, Combofiend had liberties he could take. If you don’t believe this to be true, I refer you to the first link I posted, where he fights Pyrolee and tell me if you can see Combofiend getting away with the same stuff.

[media=youtube]A9xwIvXRuLI[/media]

[media=youtube]6mfpIejj72M[/media]

[media=youtube]4aO0MsFsKiI[/media]


(Miakisukii - the only other high level Elena player I know that still plays. btw, Miakisukii’s general gameplan is very similar to mine, although I don’t like the way he goes about doing it)

[media=youtube]il8xemc8TT8[/media] <-- There is a throw baiting attempt near the end of this match; Ryu doesn’t go for a throw, but the intended effect is what happens. This isn’t effective in the way I play Elena, because I stay in Kara-Throw range - a move like that would whiff me anyways.

[media=youtube]7roQVRA9GtM[/media]

[media=youtube]H9dKAcn-NJ4[/media]

[media=youtube]k7eSRxwujOY[/media]


(Lastly, here’s an Elena player from some SBO finals. This is the closest style I’ve ever seen to mine on the internet, if you’re really interested)

Link removed - appearantly SBO vids from any year is a bannable offense. You can find this one on google video pretty quickly, though.


…And, so there you have it. A whole shitload of high level Elena play where throw-baiting and block pressure almost NEVER happens. Feel free to sift through them, if you want. I think I’ve sufficiently proven my point - the things you guys are talking about do not fly in high level play.

In any case, I don’t have a monopoly on the wiki - someone else recently updated it with his opinion on Elena’s matchups. Feel free to add your own commentary. I can see there being valid Elena playstyles where block-pressuring and throw-baiting MIGHT be good, but I just gave you TONS of examples of whom I think are the three best Elena players I’ve ever seen, following the Elena philosophies that I talk about a lot more than the ones you guys are.


#14

here’s the thing

let’s say you play your style, a character and a half distance away from your opponent on wakeup. you got for a high/low/throw mixup. your opponent guesses right and blocks your attack. what are you left with? nothing.

ok, now let’s say you’re doing the same mixup from closer in. you do some throw baiting, some reversal baiting, your opponent doesnt’ eat it. you now have a whole bunch more options. one of which is standing short. k, so let’s say your opponent guesses right and blocks your standing short instead of trying to tech a throw. the catch? he’s still in a position of disadvantage. he’s -4 frames and you get another free mixup on him. if he guessed wrong and tried to tech/attack he’d be in the same situation.

standing short is basically 0 risk guaranteed benefit in the right applications. you get guaranteed frame advantage and can force mixups. anytime you can use it, it basically provides free pressure.

I just can’t figure out why you’d limit your game to playing outside of it’s range and outside of it’s use.

nobody is saying your strategy sucks. nobody is saying you shouldn’t stay at the max range of your kara throw and do basic mixups. we’re just saying you should integrate more mixups and more tools into your game. give yourself more options. provide yourself more opportunties to fuck your opponent up.

standing short is a great tool. it has it’s place. you shouldn’t always use it. there are positions where it’s highly effective, and positions where it’s less so. keeping your opponent guessing is always a good thing though.

it’s just like ken’s low jab. people don’t use ken’s low jab a lot, but there are times and places where it’s the best move to use in certain situations. just like chun li’s standing short. or hugo’s crouching fierce and crouching roundhouse, or whatever.

not all those moves should be used all the time, but knowing their applications and potential means you can strengthen your game. All we’re saying is that you’re grossly underrating elena’s standing short, cause everyone else (including combofiend, one of your top 3 elena players) sees a lot of application and a lot of potential for it.

combo fiend does a lot of tick grabbing with it. which is something you should look into, you talk about pressuring only while the opponent is grounded. well, ticking with standing short is a great way to put an opponent on the ground.


#15

I don’t know that my distance would be so far away as a character and a half…that’s a bit out of the kara-throw range.

Either way, since I do meaty wakeup attacks, the only real dangers are

  1. Being parried (which is a risky option if you play my game right), or

  2. timing a low very poorly (cos let’s face it, all Elena’s lows are pretty bad).

Meaty overheads and meaty C.Mp are perfectly safe on block; you recover at about the same time as your opponent, which actually STILL allows you to mixup. Take F+Mk overhead, for example - even if you connect it, you don’t exactly have a frame advantage or anything (in some instances, you can link shit off of F+Mk overhead, but generally, you can’t). However, if you use it as a meaty, you are almost certainly going to recover at the same time as your opponent, regardless of whether it connects or not. From there, you have another mixup - you can throw, block (bait), C.Mp or Short Scratch Wheel (stuff), or even C.Lk XX Scratch Wheel (low). If you’re really ballsy, you even have the option of UOH as a high AFTER your overhead. This is just one of many examples - if your opponent techs your throw, you still have plenty of options…you still have an equal mixup game if your meaty C.Mp is blocked, etc.

For that reason, I’d hardly say that I’m left with nothing. My mixup game can only be stopped by reversals or parries, but you can get past both eventually if you refine it enough.

I feel I need to say this yet again - I just don’t think S.Lk is conducive to MY game. I very much enjoy the psychological advantage I have, when my opponent realizes that I can throw him, but he can’t throw me…that if he doesn’t guess right, he can eat a combo that does comparable damage to SA2 or more, in the corner (or just SA2, for all the other Elena players that use it instead of SA3, which is to say, everyone but me). Speaking of which, I feel like every S.Lk I do was an opportunity where I could have thrown them or went for something else that would have knocked my opponent down - even if the throw is teched, you’re not at a disadvantage, and you should still go for a sweep/psychic DP afterwards. This is especially great with SA3, cos pretty much any knockdown you get will net you an SA3.

I guess what I’m saying is…S.Lk really just doesn’t feel like a smart idea when you’re using SA3. When you use SA3, you have the option to gain your life back or take theirs - either one is really good, and one can definitely be more effective than the other, depending on your opponent (for example, against more turtle-esque characters like Chun-Li, it’s usually smarter to SA3…versus passive aggressive characters like Yun, it’s a crapshoot, and definitely is more of an on-the-fly decision. Against more hyper-aggressive characters like Ken, it’s frequently a better idea to go for Ex Spin Scythe Combos… S.Lk doesn’t really net you a lot of knockdowns, just a lot of hits. This is great for SA2 users, no doubt. If you’re using SA3, though, you just want your opponent to be on the ground all the time.

I’m really, really not trying to be confrontational :frowning: But…

Most of the time I see combofiend using it, it usually winds up being him going for an overhead or something afterwards. Usually when I see him tick with it, I think something like “why did he dash in and S.Lk, when he could have just dashed in and thrown the guy?” Which I have seen him do many times.

I like the idea of using S.Lk sometimes after blocked crossups…but VERY sparingly. I think it’s generally a better idea to stay back if at all possible - I don’t go for stuff like that very often, but in the case of those that do, I think that’s a nice use for it. It can also be good after resets, but it depends…I think that it’s much better for SA2 users, yet again.

If you’re an SA3 user (or perhaps, just if you play like me), people will try and parry you a lot - I can remember countless amounts of times when, before it ever occured to me that you can mixup AFTER resets, I simply went for a footsweep and got parried all day on that shit. Even now that I mixup the high attacks, people still try and parry me. When people go for parries against you with so much frequency, I think it’s pretty easy to see why it’s favorable to remove any extraneous attacks which can be parried. Even after a reset, it can just be a better idea to go straight for a throw…Or, even after a blocked jump-in.

I don’t want you to get me wrong, either - I don’t dislike the idea of S.Lk as a pressure tactic, but it is really just useless to the way I play Elena, which is to avoid being parried at any cost, and keep your opponent on the ground all day, because even when you can’t land an Ex Spin Scythe combo, you have a fair amount of opportunities to land SA3 simply with most any knockdown you can get from her basic mixup. I think that if I DID play more like Combofiend, I’d probably do it more…but I totally don’t play ANYTHING like him at all, heh. :stuck_out_tongue:

If you’ve never tried SA3 very much…see how it effects your playing style…see how you approach the match differently. I use SA3 primarily…the only matches I ever use SA2 on is Chun-Li (almost every time) and Makoto (about half the time), and I think that it changes the way I go about the match entirely. I think if you try it out for a while, you might see where I’m coming from.


#16

i use SA3 AND s.lk…

my strat is to just poke and throw all day. if my opponent and i are let’s say evenly skilled, we should theoretically poke each other point for point. healing gives me the option to just trade hits all day and still come out ahead. in fact when you play SA3 you want to tick even more. ticking leads to throws. throws are free healings.

the reason you throw in s.lks when you want to grab is to keep your opponent off balance.

let’s say there’s a tangible set of situations that you generally go for a throw. if all you did was throw in those situations then it’d get pretty obvious wouldn’t it? well let’s say you throw in s.lk in half of those situations. that makes your followup throw less obvious doesn’t it? now let’s say you s.lk UOH (hit) throw in some of those situations. the grab becomes even less obvious and you still get a throw setup. now let’s say in you s.lk b+hk in those situations your opponent tries to tech hit. wow that’s mixups and you still haven’t lost an opportunity to throw an opponent.

s.lk trains your opponent to block, which is exactly what you want your opponent to try and be doing everytime you try and grab him, which is exactly why we’ve been using tick throws in every game since WW. hell back then it was an infinite for zangief.


#17

yeah overheads and stuff are good in your mixup, but throw baiting really the only way to get big damage with elena. The only reliable way to land a low mp into super or ex spin cyte is to get them to tech a throw at the wrong time and punish the throw whiff


#18

I think your strategy sounds really good…but, here. I URGE you to watch this video:

Link removed - appearantly SBO vids from any year is a bannable offense. You can find this one on google video pretty quickly, though.

This guy plays Elena VERY close to the way I do…

  • Staying WAY out of range without a knockdown, while throwing in random moves.

  • Elena only goes in to do a cross-up/empty jump mixup, or a dash-in throw (which this guy was doing a back job of this match - nerves, perhaps?).

  • The only things I seriously disagree with in this guy’s playing style is SA2, and the fact that he goes for Normal Spin Scythes, which are very easy to red parry. Very unsafe.

  • At 0:32, Elena pulls something very similar to my mixup game, except for that she’s waaaaaaaay too close. Most options you throw from my range would be safer in that situation, cos a reversal EX Shoryuken would not knock her down. In any case, it was a bad move for Elena to stop trying after that.

  • At 0:48 is one of the more important things I want to show you - this is one of the EXACT REASON why I don’t try S.Lk - it’s a mid, and can be parried as such - more importantly, you’re still VERY unsafe afterwards.

  • At 1:14, you see a perfect example of how you can mixup even after a block F+Mk overhead - in this case, Elena goes for the kara-throw, but you have almost all your options about you, with even a few more that are viable that normally aren’t.

  • At 1:22 is another very important point: This shows just how unstable the tick can be, as Ken could almost immediately go for the Shoryuken. Now, sure, admittedly, it was probably a bait tactic, but ANYTHING ELSE would have lost hardcore. It’s a very easy risk/reward situation for Ken, cos if Elena tries anything else, she’s screwed. Personally, I think that just going for the throw right after the crossup would have caught him more off-guard - throwing out the S.Lk just gives your opponent time to go “oh hey, Elena’s doing this, so I should probably just do an attack that wins.”

I love tick throws…LOVE EM. But, I don’t think they’re very useful in Street Fighter 3, for two reasons:

  1. They’re overall easier to escape than they were in ST, or any game that doesn’t have a throw whiff animation

  2. If you time it wrong, you get a throw whiff animation, which leaves you wide open, as opposed to ST, where you even had OPTION SELECTS with reversal 360s. Too good.

  3. Your opponent can be thrown the moment you get up, much unlike ST, where ticking is almost necesary if you want to throw your opponent again.

  4. This is more of a tag-on point, but in ST, even if your opponent teched a throw, they took some damage (in fact, they automatically take full damage if the throw would kill them anyways), and you almost always maintined the advantage - not to mention you couldn’t tech out of mash grabs (knee-bash, biting, noogies, etc.).

In the end, this guy almost wins the round…he loses not because of his strategy, but just cos of his nerves (I suppose going for C.Mp XX SA2 after blocked Ken SA3 was a bad idea too - if you use SA2, you should just go for it cold turkey, cos SA3 recovers very fast, and C.Mp is slower than people realize).

I think both of our strategies are very viable, and good points are made both ways. I just personally think ticking is much less effective, and even kind of dangerous in 3S. Do as you like.

Once more, like I said before - I don’t have a monopoly on the wiki or anything…feel free to mention anything you want.


#19

no sbo vids


#20

It’s “No SBO4 Vids”, I think. That one is from SBO1, I believe…MAYBE SBO2.

Edit: Shit, you were right. I removed the links for now. You can find the one I’m talking about on google video (I’m not exactly sure why, but it’s not on Youtube).