Evo HDR results = proof of a great game


#1

I’ve been playing fighting games for a long time. I started competitive play about 10 years ago playing Tekken Tag. TTT, is considered by a lot, to be the best Tekken. The top players would win consistently, and I don’t mean just them getting in the top 8 everytime. I mean the top player would either win, or get 2nd or 3rd at WORST. The top player would win about 3 to 4 major tournies in a row (at least) until someone dethroned him. The quest to find that someone to beat him was epic among players and the community. MvC2 was another one of these games.

As the years have gone on, I’ve noticed a trend in games. Game designers want to make things easier for people to do so more people can play them on the competitive stage. In Tekken, juggles became more glamorous yet easier to perform, throws easier to break, and the ‘crush’ system was inventing to help lesser players avoid difficult guessing games.

Smash Bros. Melee was a great game…then Brawl came out, and we know the rest there. BlazBlue seemed like an easier Guilty Gear. And SF4 disappointed me with the endless ways to to get out of pressure situations with pure ease (4 ways to get out of a throw when having advantage). Every tourney seemed to have a different winner, it was getting much harder to win consistently.

Was the gap lessening that much between players the larger the community got? Or was something wrong with the games? Were they just made too easy for players to perform at a high level with minimal practice? A question I gave the benefit of the doubt to the ever-growing fighting game community and the talented up and coming players that made it happen.

But as time went on, my opinion began to change. I didn’t feel like I was getting worse at games, but it just felt like it was easier for people to get away with things and it was impossible to tell if a player was just REALLY good or just did something out of a hunch.

But with HDR, it felt different. You KNEW when your playing someone good. You knew you were playing a good player when they never mistimed their meaty against all characters and their get-up timing. You knew you were playing a good player when they got reversals consistently. You knew you were playing a good player when they landed a high execution combo. You knew you were playing a good player when they knew every faucet of the match-up you are playing.

I was still skeptical though. So much that when I went to Evo…I didn’t enter a single tourney. Yea I know, it was lame. When I heard about some of the best players already knocked out of the T6 tourney, my heart sank. Life with fighting games was over. HDR was my last hope.

When I saw the top 8 left in HDR, a glimmer of hope came over me. I knew almost every player as one of the best in either HDR or ST. The top players ACTUALLY made it.

Really?

The best players I’ve played are DGV and Snake Eyes. They took it to a whole other level that I didn’t know about playing them. When it came to the grand finals, it was unbelievably epic. They were the last 2 standing. The way it outta be.

“THIS is how the finals of EVERY tourney SHOULD be.” I thought. “The BEST players making it and battling out for the #1 spot.”

The level of play was tremendous. You could watch and genuinely appreciate the skill and mind games that the players were putting on each other and miraculously getting out of them or making them happen. It reminded me of the old days of Tekken Tag. Even if you didn’t do well in the tourney, you had the privilege of seeing the best players duke it out in the most dramatic fashion; The tourney finals…and not in some money match in a hotel room later on that night.

God Bless HDR and may it never die.

Thanks for reading.

PEACE


#2

I don’t entirely see everything in the same way that you do - I think that the randomness and format of tournaments to accurately find the best players is a huge part of it, as much as the games’ designs - but I just wanted to especially support the sentiment above! :slight_smile:


#3

Remy, you are right that the tournament format is difficult. However, online, we should be able to run tournaments swiss style (the way magic: the gathering tournaments are run), which is a much more fair format.


#4

I’m intrigued, what is Swiss style?

I always thought things like round robins give you a more accurate winner (better takes out things like one bad match-up). Take to long, though, LOL.


#5

Swiss-system tournament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  • Basically you keep playing even if you don’t have a chance at the top anymore, so the results for middle and low ranked players are more accurate since they played more matches instead of going 2 and out.
  • It doesn’t actually change much for the accuracy of the top ranked players (lose twice and you’re practically guaranteed to not be at the top).
  • It also takes more matches to run overall, which might not matter if you have enough stations (might be ok for online tourneys where number of stations is basically infinite unless you need spectator recorders).
  • Player pairings are a bit harder to predict than in elimination brackets, so people depend more on the tourney organizer and he has more work to do.

#6

How does HDR not follow the same game design routes done by all the games you mentioned? High execution in HDR? That’s hilarious.


#7

Thanks Thelo, yep that just about covers everything about Swiss. It would be slightly better for ranking, and I’ve played (& ran) so many Magic tournaments that did it like that. The trouble is that most people will drop the tournament as soon as they have 2 losses and not play on to see if they are really middle or bottom of the pack… so, yeah, I don’t think it would add much to a SF tournament for the additional time and hassle in running it. As the TO you also pretty much have to use some software to do the pairings for a large field to be able to run it fast and smoothly enough anyway.

The only 100% fair way to do a ranking system is actually matches between all players, as mad possum says a round robin style. But that does take a very long time. As soon as you get up to about 8 players then the time-added is pretty high compared to double elimination. It should be easy on paper, but I also find it pretty awkward to run manually as a TO, but then it’s because I’m not familiar with running it.

I looked at all this for running the Euro XBL tournies of course, and I came to the same conclusion that EVO and other events obviously did, that double elimination is the best compromise. But I make it very careful to only show the results as “top 2” because that’s the only thing accurately determined by a single double elimination tournament. Yes making “top 8” at EVO shows you are definitely a very VERY good player and did very well at that event, but it DOES NOT mean you were actually in the “top 8”. It’s very likely that someone in 9th, 20th or whatever, actually is actually a better player and even possibly had better results in the tournament overall (eg. they only lost to the top 2 finishers, whereas you lost to someone much lower down). You were just in the ‘final 8’ players not to be eliminated. I minor thing I know, but wish people would call it Final 8 instead of “top” 8.

If you look at results across multiple double elims of course, then results start to become significant enough for actual ranking.

Another way is the ELO-type rating system that XBL uses (and so does Magic). That ELO rating can also be applied to tournament results! So you would rate someone against the matches they actually played. Magic does this in an excellent way by calculating it across multiple events and tournaments, where the bigger the tournament the more weighting the results have towards your overall rating.

I’d love for a formalised rating, ranking and tournament system like Magic uses to be applied to a video game like SF. I feel there’s a lot to learn there. However it all completely relies upon being run by a single organised body (in Magic’s case, the DCI, which for all intents and purposes seems to be part of Wizards of the Coast really though) which no videogame has. The only way I see it would happen would be for a company like Capcom themselves to actually set it up and run it - and they don’t have the financial incentive to do it like that right now. However I feel if they were more smart in the way they monetised their game, there would be ways to do it. (Meh, written enough already I won’t do that ramble right now ^_^).


#8

You realize that you can be more lenient than ST and still be strict right? Compare HDR to other games and come back.


#9

It’s not the leniency as much as the input changes, some of which I think make sense and some which I think are flat out dumb.


#10

To me it seems like you are flat out troll. If you like ST more than HDR just switch the forum please, thanks.


#11

No, you guys have taken on HDR as the SFII game now, so that you means you take on the previous game’s players/trolls too.


#12

It would be completely different if the new version of said game was in fact better. Like Super. Not HDR


#13

Amen.


#14

Why do you guys keep frequenting this forum if you hate HDR so much?


#15

They’re trolls.

Pay them no mind.


#16

I watched in the news recently that virgin have plans to start a betting service based on online xbox and ps3 games, ie gambling on if you win or not.


#17

Forget Swiss.
That crap is fail.

Either go Double Elimination Brackets, or Round Robin, or a mix of both. (round robin, then D.E. brackets)

Top player ranking is all that matters really anyway.


#18

do you think this could work…just 4 fun…HDR sub-leagues:

All American
Limited to guile, ken and balrog

Asian All Stars
Limited to ryu, honda, chunli, sim and fei long

Who needs fireballs:
Limited to non projectile characters

Projectile Pride
Limited to all projectile characters

Fairer Sex:
Limited to chun-li and Cammy

Battle of the Big Boys
Limited to hawk, rog, honda and gief

Super Charged
Limited to charge charaters only

Why Wait:
Limited to non charge characters

OG’s
The orginal boss characters (rog,vega,sagat,bison)


#19

Sounds boring to me, but it’s a cool/creative idea none the less.


#20

We thought about toying with this idea on Freaky Friday in the WWL. The major complaint was that it was too limiting to people who play a limited character set… and besides, you can’t just have Chun and Cammy, you have to add in Vega because he really secretly wishes he was a woman.

The other problem is in a “non-fireball” tournament, everyone should pick Honda, because there’s no one without a fireball he’s not favored against… PERIOD… with the possible exception of Vega and Bison I suppose…