Evo Tournament Rules now available

the 3s judgement feature innately will favor certain characters than others. I’ve let a two player match time out with players on full health, q vs makoto, and the computer will choose Makoto to win all the time.

Judgement has been beaten to death already. Whether people think it’s skillful or the best designed feature isn’t really at issue. A lot of things in the game favor certain characters or playstyles, but that’s never been a reason to go changing the game, I don’t see why it is now.

If you play without cheats, without breaking the rules, and the game determines you the winner, then you won. If you think you might lose a judgement, then don’t let it go to the judges in the first place.

i always thought that having judgement determine the winner is done because its pretty exciting that way (not because of time issues or anything).

im not saying i’m for it or against it, just thought that was the reasoning behind it.

it makes me really uncomfortable that somebody’s elimination (or even extra $3000) could be determined by something that’s completely random and out of the players’ control (aside from “don’t let it go to the judges in the first place”- as strong of an argument as that is:arazz:).

but you already have your minds made up. :sad:

Last year they used the Judgement system as well, didn’t they? It’s listed in the rules for EVO 2005. If they didn’t have a problem last year, then they probably won’t have a problem this year too.

The judgment rule has been in effect since 2004. Thats the way Japan plays it, and thats the way it will be. Whining about a ingame mechanic because you think its unfair is retarded. If you are that worried that you will end ina judgment, learn how it works, and abuse the system.

judgement is fucking stupid, I would much rather have to play the whole game over again, or at least play the one round over even with both players no meter. Shit at least give us that.

Saying dumb things to try to proove the correct point isn’t a good thing. Until I see proof, i’m going to assume judgement is fair. Its not like it comes up too often anyway, even if it isn’t fair.

The only valid point in your argument is that Japan plays it that way. I know you want to have some sort of standard because Evo has indeed become the World Tournament and of course Japan sets most standards these days. However, as much as I like what Japan does in gaming, I can’t believe Japan even allows it. Yall have obviously decided to ban certain in game mechanics in other games, like dead body infinites and so forth. Why would you ban dead body infinites if its an ingame mechanic? Because it is retarded tournament-wise. Same thing with other things you banned in other games that are in game mechanics. So is judgement, which is why people are bitching about it. Judgement is based probably like when you play the computer and you get points on style for this and that. Traditionally, fighting games have always ran that if you get a draw, then you play the round over, or some type of sudden death type of match. It’s just like if you were watching a basketball or football match, and they draw on the last quarter, and then the winner was decided on who did the flashiest thing or who looked the coolest. Utterly rediculous right? That’s why I say at least give a sudden death round where you play one round. Then whoever wins that, wins the match. I know you guys probably want to save time, which you are doing with Evo East/West. But we obviously aren’t following Japan to the tee, we would be doing single game single match for every game if that were the case. So that is my logical non-whining viewpoint on Judgement.

One of the critera for a ban is that the mechanic be gamebreaking. Gamebreaking means it fundamentally changes the game. Judgement doesn’t qualify.

“Retardedness” is not the reason. Dead body infinites are banned because they the game. Instead of having to kill all 3 of your opponents, you need only kill 1 and infinite him until time runs out. That turns a 3on3 game into a “first kill wins” game, which is fundamentally different.

That’s your guess. It’s possible that Judgement picks the person who did the biggest combos, or parried the most, or had the greatest technical skill, in which case it’s a perfectly resonable tie-breaker. Even if Judgement were completely random, it still wouldn’t break the game and would not be banned.

Ok on retardedness, that’s what I was pointing at that it turns into a “first kill wins” game. I was just responding to Mr. Wizard saying people are retarded for bitching at in game mechanics. Obviously some in game mechanics must be bitched at, like dead body.

And on the Judgement issue, yes I will admit it is a guess, but that doesn’t make Judgement any more feasible in my eyes. It’s just like in any professional competition or sport, the energy bars are like point systems in any sport. Just refer back to my sports analogy before. If two teams have the same points at the game end, then there is some sort of tie-breaker where you play again to determine a victor. That’s the reason in sports/competition we have 2/3, 3/5, 4/7 etc. If both people have 3 wins in a 4/7, then we just say well damn those combos that 1P did in matches 2 and 4 were the shit, P2 didn’t really do any hot combos, so let’s just give P1 the victory? Hell no man, just let them duke it out in game 7 and get a winner. I know that other professional sports/competition use judging, like boxing. This is just my opinion and how I feel on the matter. Valid points no? I think in this case as well an extra sudden death match wouldn’t take time at all, I think at the most 5-10 mins for 3rd strike, and on top of that for something like Judgement which really doesn’t happen too often. I think what we really need too is someone who really understands how Judgement works to hop in this thread as well. Peace

That’s the dumbest argument ever. What you basically just said is that it’s ok to use any system in any game, as long as we’re not SURE it’s game-breaking. So if there is a move in MvC2 that is ridiculously random…sometimes when you perform it, you kill yourself, other times you kill your entire opponents team, sometimes it comes out as a normal special, and sometimes nothing happens at all…well, we’re not SURE if it’s going to be game-breaking, it just MIGHT be but we have no evidence to be SURE it will be, so it must be okay to use it!

The truth is, nobody has any idea what Judgement in Third Strike is based off of. If it IS based off of the “grade system” then it is the worst judge of who should win a draw match, EVER. You’re basically saying that the person that parries more, has higher-hit combos, and uses supers more, is much better than a person who has better mindgames, spacing, footsies, normals, resets, etc. One thing that we are ALL sure of is, that for some reason, Judgement favors Chun-Li EXTREMELY heavily. If you don’t believe me, purposefully do 10 draw games of Chun-Li vs. Ken, and tell me how many times Chun-Li wins.

Using Judgement, or any system in any game, just because you’re not absolutely SURE it’s game-breaking, is ridiculous. The fact is, NOBODY has properly TESTED the Judgement system to figure out if it is really “game-breaking.” I’m sorry, if you have, please post the results of your test. If not, then you are not in any position to be saying what is game-breaking and what isn’t.

I KNOW that Gambit’s runaway glitch is bullshit. I KNOW that Ruby Heart can freeze an entire game. And if my experience, of the maybe 10 times I’ve seen judgement EVER in 3s, in any matches that Chun-Li was in (which was probably about 7 since she is whored out in that game), she’s won EVERY SINGLE TIME. So from my personal experience, I KNOW that Judgement is total bullshit and should not be used in a WORLD TOURNAMENT environment.

PLEASE, if you want to do what you’re attempting and try to become the “premiere world tournament series,” don’t just start laying down rule mandates based off of what the Japanese do. Consult top players, TEST your theories, and then make intelligent decisions.

I think what you said right there is the dumbest argument ever.

My point was that EVO staff are using something totally unpredictable as a basis to decide who wins, in a highly competitive, WORLD-LEVEL tournament with HUGE prizes. NOBODY KNOWS WHAT THE BASIS OF JUDGEMENT IS FOR SURE! How can you use that to determine the winner of draw games?

is different than

Everyone to this point is sure that Judgement isn’t game breaking, it requires the entire round to be played to a tie, therefore is no chance of it ever overshadowing other parts of the game. Maybe some glitch in the future will allow you to tie people much better than you and then it can be re-examined.

The only (valid) argument being presented is ‘I don’t like that part of 3s’ , I can understand the feeling, but thats never been good enough to change a rule, no need to start now.

All evo is saying is that they are not going to interfere with the game just because people don’t like something (are we really having the ‘cheap’ discussion again?? unbelievable).

Just like a game of SC or VF can end with a ring out instead of a KO, and Guilty Gear can end with an IK instead of a KO, and DOA4 can end with a random cheetah knocking you into the air for no reason, it follows that 3s can end in a judgement instead of a KO. They are all a part of the game, and not liking them is not a reason enough to interfere.

Actually, what I said is exactly the same. Apparently it’s ok to use anything that’s not game-breaking…we have NO IDEA if Judgement is game-breaking because nobody has ever tested it before…for example, to see if a Super-Art II whoring Chun-Li wins the majority of times over anybody else. NOBODY has tested Judgement because, let’s face it, it’s HARD to get Draw games during legitimate matches, even if you try.

So, rather than just resetting that one game and letting the competitors replay (which will arguably take 3 minutes, a maximum of what, 2 times per TOURNAMENT?), we would rather use an untested, UNGUARANTEED system determine who wins, in a COMPETITIVE tournament where the biggest pots in US fighting game history are at stake???

If you have some kind of evidence that justifies Judgement being used, besides “Those silly Japs use it and they know better than us!”, please post. If not, then please stay out of it.

Let’s face it, 3s not only introduced the Grade system, and the Judgement system, but also re-introduced the Bonus round system of breaking a car and then parrying balls…who gives a crap? Just because something is in a game, does not mean you need to use it to determine the winner of a competitive tournament fight.

Nobody was consulted at all on this issue, AS USUAL, and that’s why this needs to be re-examined. Please, before you make any more ridiculously incorrect statements or arguments that make no sense, CONSULT TOP PLAYERS ON THIS ISSUE. When I see top US and Japanese 3s players posting here, saying “Judgement can be used, I don’t give a shit,” then I’ll accept it. But based off of TOURNAMENT experience, this system should not be used, and nothing you’ve said has proven otherwise.

That is the point. Banning something, again, isn’t about what people like, it’s about whether someone who is otherwise outmatched can use it to win anyway, and degenerate all the other skills in the game. Because judgement only comes into effect when the health bar is equal, it will never favor the otherwise weaker player, so it cannot be gamebreaking.

Judgement is not an external system being used by evo, it’s been programmed into every copy of 3s, and therefore has been present (even if the result was thrown out), in every 3s tournament in the history of the game, not to mention every casual match. That is part of the data being considered.

In not one case has the game degenerated because of judgement, and in not one case has a player used judgement to topple an otherwise superior opponent. The absolute worst that has ever happened, is that some players said ‘I don’t like that’… hardly a condemnation.

It needs to be justified as much as using a hadoken does, it’s in the game by default, it’s not an optional or unlockable feature.

None of the other things you mentioned is used by default to determine the outcome of the match, to implement those things would be interfering.

OTOH, judgement is in the game by default to determine wins of a competitive fight, so to remove that part of the game would also be interfering.

Not to say that tournament directors can’t interfere when needed, but the argument needs to be a lot stronger than the one currently in place for judgement. BTW repeating the same argument does not make it any stronger.

What you forget is that this issue is years old, most top players have been consulted
already, just not with the question of “Do you like judgement?”, because that question is irrelavant.

The important question is either “Do you believe judgement will now or ever be gamebreaking? If so explain”, or “Can you see judgement allowing people to win that are otherwise inferior to their opponents?”. The answer has always confirmed what common sense says, that judgement is not a problem and there is no reason to place it alongside ST akuma and gambit glitches.

–Do you believe judgement will now or ever be gamebreaking?

Actually, no. Tournament breaking? Hell yes.

What we need to think about is what the purpose of judgement in 3s is. Natually, I didn’t make the game; I can only assume. But I assume judgement was implemented into the game to prevent arcade players from ending the last round in a draw and staying on the machine as long as they wanted. I highly doubt that the developers thought that this would be a good way to decide a tournament.

No one seems to know what factors into a judgement. Reasonable ideas are: number of parries, number of hits in any number of combos. It would be akin to deciding the outcome of a pro basketball game based on: number of assists, number of points scored in any number of “runs”. If game 7 of the NBA finals was decided based on those raw numbers at the end of regulation of a tied game, what would be the reaction?

But I can only assume. If a poll were posted, asking people whether or not judgements were implemented to help decide the outcome of tournaments based on their assumptions, what would the results of that poll be? Would your assumption honestly be that it was made to decide the winner of a tournament?

–Can you see judgement allowing people to win that are otherwise inferior to their opponents?

Technically no. But I can also ask: Can you see judgement determining each and every time who the superior player is? The answer is also no. The only thing that determines who wins is one player at zero life or the greater amount of life at timeout. You simply can’t cheat people by allowing judgement to decide wins. Check Kao Megura’s 3s faq at gamefaqs.com. It hints at previous SF3 games randomly selecting the winner of a judgement where no buttons are pressed and judgements being biased towards player1!

Judgement simply does not decide the winner of a game better than a replay will.

So far the attitude has basically been ‘if it’s in there by default, then it’s in there.’ But please think really hard and ask yourself if it’s reasonable to conclude that ‘it’s also in there to decide tournaments.’ Because if this is the case, and if you would feel 100% ok if you lost because of judgement, then bless you; there’s not much I can say.

I’m sure everyone is using chun-li because she wins a lot from judgement.

I think i’m going to sell judgement insurance. For 10 dollars if you lose a match due to judgement and don’t place in the money you get 30 dollars.

Which ps2/dc controller converters will be used for EVO?