They really needed to shill harder man.
Isn’t that one defining feature of fighting games though?
Aren’t there games out there that are designed better in order to learn them by just playing them?
I mean I kinda think it’s cool that you hit walls that you can’t get past, unless you go into training mode and do a Rocky/Karate Kid/No Retreat, No Surrender training montage and then come back, and kick that somebody’s ass.
You know kinda like real martial arts.
Dunno but I think that having to invest time into training and building your arsenal outside of the game, made the whole experience special. Otherwise I’d probably still be playing Dota 2.
I think Sirlin appreciates the rock, papers, scissors game the most while disregarding other important pieces of the puzzle.
I think that if you regard “cannot be learned properly by just playing” as a defining feature for an entire genre you are a bit damaged by your experience, if you will pardon my expression.
A well-designed game can absolutely be learned just by playing it. You can learn more efficiently by labbing and practicing, but you can’t even begin to play fighters properly without practicing special motions and such. Not even chess or basketball works like that - the best players of course take them seriously, practice a ton and crush noobs mercilessly (or they would, if they bothered playing them). But you can become a very good player by just playing.
There’s plenty to learn in FSFG, frame data, reach of moves, priority, matchups. You can learn a lot of that in practice mode. But you can also get a good grasp of it just by playing.
You can learn to do any move just by playing a fighter. Anyone who says otherwise is full of shit. But to execute well takes practice, just like dribbling well with skill and full control takes practice. Ball control takes a TON of practice. Shooting well takes TONS of practice. Sports teams have practices multiple times a week because you have to practice.
Every game, to play well takes practice. If you think you get good at a skill based game or sport just by playung then to borrow a term, “You are a bit damaged.”
Could you please not use the term “skill based game”? What it means is a game that is not based on luck, like roulette or slots. FSFG is skill based. Chess is skill based. Heck, poker and blackjack have large elements of skill. Claiming that “skill based” is something else is moronic and is only used when somebody wants to claim that their way of gaming is “superior”.
Now, what you’re trying to say is that there are certain mechanical skills that you can develop with rote practice, like dribbling, performing a proper punch, doing qcf-movements or Always Be Casting in mmos. But there are other skills as well, and for a game they will often be more important, and are definitely more interesting. The skills FSFG test are matchup knowledge, proper spacing, prediction to name the big ones (also reaction, but it works a lot better when you know what you need to be ready for). Normal fighters add inputs, knowledge of which moves to use and which to ignore, and combo execution. I’m sorry, but the only one of those that are when marginally interesting is the process of sorting the wheat from the chaff moves, and I’m more than happy to dump fake “depth” that you sort through before you even pay the game.
Wut? Skill based, as in it takes fucking skill to play. I never said it was better then any other kind of game and I never said Fantasy Strike wasn’t a skill based game, that’s your fucking hang up. I don’t think my game is “better” then anyone else based on it being a “skill based game” or not. Don’t project your problems onto me, sort them out yourself.
What is FSFG? Is it Fantasy Strike Fighting Game? Just making sure this is what you are referring to. Fantasy Strike tests a small subset of what makes fighting games over all interesting, and if that’s all you care about more power to you, but that’s not a argument that practice is a negative, and comparing fighters to other games and saying those games don’t require practice is fucking stupid as shit. Even Chess requires ass loads of practice to be able to move pieces properly, efficiently, and with skill.
Your post makes no fucking sense. It’s not about it being interesting, ball control isn’t interesting but it’s still a skill you have to practice and learn to use well in order to compete in Basketball. Your comparison was asinine because every game has “uninteresting” skills you have to practice until they are rote muscle memory in order to compete. The wheat moves? Do you mean weak moves? Chaff moves? I don’t even know what the fuck that is supposed to mean.
Not saying this is you, but from my experience talking to people both online and in person, they don;t get into fighting games because they are fucking lazy. They don;t want to put in the time it takes to become good at the game, to remove the margin for error so they they can get the move they want when they want or need it. They want a one button Shoryu thinking that will let them get to the "interesting’ part faster without regard for what that margin for error actually adds to the game and it’s competitive meta. The ability to just summon a DP with the press of a button has a MASSIVE impact on how the meta for a game works, it’s not some little deal that’s there to block the plebs from being able to play the “interesting” part. It has a massive effect on the pace, and progression of a match. It’s a big deal and is something that shouldn’t be looked at lightly.
This game is a really interesting experiment and it would be interesting to see what kind of longevity it has with such a simplistic control scheme and execution barrier but it’s really dumb to me how easily people discount what execution actually adds to the game. Basketball would be a very different sport if any asshole could 3 pointers 100% of the time with 0 practice, but people seem to happy to make the comparison that games like Basketball take less practice to be good at when they don’t, they take loads more practice just to do basic things like handle the ball well, and sink shots when they need to and those things add depth and reward both on a personal level as well as to the over all health of the game itself, be it any sport or competitive video game.
You halfway understand what I’m saying and halfway totally misunderstand me.
Chess is pretty unique among board games in that it has skills that you can improve with rote practice. Most other games, like poker, magic: the gathering or Agricola to name three, are best learned and improved by playing - playing with purpose, yes, keeping an eye out for critical situations and analyzing your play, but you don’t get good at Agricola by hitting the practice room or memorizing openings. Most game designers see opening theory as a weakness of chess, not a strength.
My entire point is that it’s not a criteria of a good game that you can get better with rote practice outside of playing the game. Computer games often have that element, but the best ones do not rely on it. You get better at games by playing them and analyzing them.
I do totally accept that a lot of people like practicing stuff to get better at it. I prefer playing the game with a critical eye, but fortunately the rest of you have the rest of the fighting game genre to play with!
No one said it was a criteria, the problem is that a lot of people act like not being like Fantasy Strike is the problem, it’s not, it’s those people and their unwillingness to take the time to practice. Those people aren’t going to be good at Fantasy Strike either, even with it’s one button specials because they still wont practice, it’s more then just chillin in Training Room and practicing combos. Playing with purpose is also practice.
It’s not like moves in most fighting games are tough to do anymore anyway, doing a characters special and super list in the Xrd series is fucking easy. “I don’t want to have to practice to Hadouken” is nothing more then an excuse to not play.
This is a great post and explains a lot about why I love the oldschool fighting games like ST. More nuance and better set play means you can better set up your cheap stuff and pigeonhole players into making bad decisions. There is something much more rewarding about forcing your opponent into making a choice of the lesser of 2 evils rather than a simple mixup where you guess right you win, you guess wrong you lose and little in between.
I haven’t played fantasy strike at all yet, wanted to but didn’t have time during the free weekends… but a game that is more about nuance and setplay, rather than execution or super fast situations that are always changing slightly very quickly (sf5) I guess that’s why I acclimated so well to skullgirls which I feel is a lot like ST in SOME ways once you past the combo execution barrier… which isn’t THAT hard. The game has lots of reset setplay and because the combos take a semi decent amount of time to complete, you can think about what your next play is in your combo. Not that it’s exactly like ST at all. Obviously, but the game is unforgiving in areas that are similar to ST, like you need to have your spacing perfectly on point in SG to stand a chance, as well as use your normals at the tip of their spacing in order to be most effective, plus most characters have high priority normals they use that they “spam” to control space and get into good situations.
I dont know, I find shoryuken motions and charge motions probably the derpiest super motions in fighting games when something more intuitive (like a simple forward to back or down to up) could easily replace it. And that simply hasnt happend because “legacy SF did it”. Sure, you could do it “better” with practice, OR you could just find a better motion or gimmick that gives the results your looking for. A down to up motion for a shoryuken forces the shoto to completely stop forward momentum to do a largely veritical defense/zoning maneuver. Geiger’s gear bar is actually an intuitive way to fix charge characters and still keep them largely as “charge” characters. Now you know when you can do a Sonic Boom or Flash Kick and you instantly give up the ability to do one if you ever move forward, forcing yourself to wait for the bar to charge again. AND you can easily tweak the charge in a way that any casual could understand by making the bar charge up faster or slower depending on how easily you want the moves done.
I dont think ANYONE has problems with quarter circles or half circles. it was dumb awkward shit like charges, shoryuken motions, and 360 grabs that only existed because 90s that ever needed to change. Its not deep, not “skill”, for the last 2 motions often felt like RNG most of the time. And now I wait for the obvious people to yell “NO! It wouldnt have been like that if you PRACTICED!! HUR HUR HUR!!” At which point I roll my eyeballs so hard they come out of my head. Such is life.
Hey look! I wasnt wrong! And now i wait for the poorly worded rebuttal on how i wasnt technically correct even though he proved my point by being an idiot who couldnt even be bothered to say a full sentence.
It’s good to have a game where the primary non game practice you do is setups rather than combo timing. Actively practicing for situations is way different from practicing a rhythm
I thought the whole point of a DP motion was to make the attack less useful from a crouching position? I realize that this has changed since the 90s, but it still makes sense to me from a design standpoint.
Ive never heard that used before. Ive mostly heard the motion exists to make the move harder to use as anything more than a defensive ability or just plain difficult because many of them have invincibility frames (like Ryu) or are tied to abilities that capcom wants to be “hard to use” like Dhalsim’s teleport. While i can understand the reasoning behind it, its still a shitty and awkward motion that could be done a different way while still retaining the properties the motion had.
Shoryuken motion makes it so you can’t do the move while walking backward, while blocking and especially not while crouch blocking. This idea that the motions all exist because we’re all too afraid and weak of mind to see things change really annoys me. Spreading ignorance about the genre is not going help make it more popular.
These people also need to stop saying it takes months to learn qcf or srk motion. It’s a lie that helps no one.
prove to them the opposite and maybe they would take you more seriously. Nothing is wrong with change as long as the new design given understands why the previous evolution existed. in FS, the shoyrukens either dealt you damage (Jaina) as well or were on whats basically a 10 second CD (Grave Super). So its not like Sirlin completely misunderstood why the motion and design is the way it is.