Far s.hk and its potentially reduced effectiveness . .

. . . in Super.

So there is a lot of fevered discussion concerning Akuma’s incarnation in Super.

Firstly, we have his comical Ultra II which boasts an odd command combined with an inability to combo, FADC into and also whiffs entirely on crouching opponents. Yum.

Second, there have been reports from those present at the recent Vegas demo of Super (also confirmed by Seth Killian) that Akuma has lost his ability to ‘loop’ via fs.hk, lp, repeat on larger characters - namely Sagat, Abel and so on. It is claimed that this is prevented by way of an extended start-up of the fs.hk which prevents linking to it from s.lp

Keep in mind that Super is still under development and all of this is subject to change. While I personally expected the loop to be removed, I feel that the delayed start-up is a poor way to do it as this impacts the effectiveness of fs.hk in other situations, which is very integral to Akuma’s game - particularly as part of FADC follow-ups from fireballs to maintain pressure and momentum.

That aside, I figured things are quiet here and wanted to hear your thoughts as to how you feel this may impact Akuma (rather than hijack or derail the thread in the Super forum that is more ‘general’ in nature to Akuma in Super).

Character Specific:

  • Can no longer loop Sagat to deal damage, build meter, lock him down and stun him
  • Likewise for Abel, Zangief and to a lesser extent Gouken

Combo impact:

  • Delayed startup will make FADC follow-ups from fireball difficult and even more fickle. This is a key normal to stand opponents up (and deal damage) at a distance. Losing the ability to do this affects our pressure game and maximising damage. A delayed start-up means we may blow two meters trying to land this only to end up being blocked due to the reduced window to connect.

I played a lot last night and found fs.hk a valuable tool - largely against SPECIFIC characters. Its an obvious go-to when facing Sagat and Abel for example. Its borderline avoided (for me) against Ryu though has its uses in FADC situations. I also tend to use fs.hk on cornered opponents to keep the pressure on and feel a delayed start-up potentially stands to detract from Akuma. I also use it as a spacing tool.

I’m curious to hear more about what you guys think about this (possible) change. Big deal? Not a big problem? Only a loss on specific characters? Something this small does actually stand to change Akuma significantly for those who are very familiar with the character though at the same time, he still enjoys a wealth of tools, options, setups and so on.

Couldn’t the have just adjusted those hit stun boxes instead? That’s what I feel should have happened. It’s not like Akuma can loop EVERYBODY. The only one that really get’s shitted on by the roundhouse loop from my experience is Sagat and Abel - maybe Rufus if you’re ballsy enough to rush in on him.

It would probably take a lot more work for Capcom to adjust his far stLP hitbox in such a way that his stHK would never reach afterward than it would be for them to add 1 frame of recovery to his far stLP so that it won’t link into RH.

Ultimately, I think you’re better off adjusting Akuma’s move in some way that you are changing other characters’ hitboxes to deal with it. That’s what leads to the messed up shit in Alpha 3. Even if you don’t take things that far, slowing st. HK down like one or two frames is less likely to have a significant impact on Akuma’s game than making Sagat or Abel’s hitboxes harder to hit on combos, as that will affect other character’s combos against them as well.

this and all his other nerfs are pissing me the fuck off seriously im probably not gonna get super sf4 if this shit is in it and stick to sf4 either that or switch mains HOW DO U FUCK UP A NORMAL SERIOUSLY. like just cause all the sagats are complaining are u seirous? we can get killed in no effort from sagat we need the move. its a great normal. if thats bull shit then i want ryus c. mk fixed so it doesnt combo with fireball like akumas, i want sagats uppercut fadc roundhouse roundhouse ultra to not work only uppercut fadc ultra. this is a retarded idea i dont know who capcom is listening to when its making this game.

Fair enough about hitboxes, even though I still believe they need to fix alot of them ( moves looking like they connect, but don’t and visa versa ). Best thing I guess would be to shave off a frame from fs.jab. Sure sweep becomes a one framer IIRC, but at least fs.rh remains the same speed. A big chunk of my bigger character game is going to be missing when SUPER comes out :sweat:

Well, if all this is true then I guess we gotta swallow that shit and move on. And see what else Super brings to the table.

But I’m kinda annoyed they took off the loop, I was just starting to get the hang of it.:mad:

First thank you for these news.

But I have some questions about Gouki’s Far HK…

If it’s true that HK wiffs behind hado FADC on a crouching opponent, does it means that it always wiffs on crouching caracter?

Because in that case Gouki is really nerfed!Far HK is the better way to begin combos and keep on pressure, I can’t believe it!

On the other hand, removing loop isn’t so dramatic since Sagat is going to be nerfed, but I don’t understand Capcom :“we won’t nerf anyone, but give them tools” -__-’

Be careful Capcom, we remember what you done with Guile on SFIV…

Sagat, Abel, Gief
Honda, Guile, Rufus (at least 3 loop from hado FADC)

They might as well rename him Dan. :-p

If these changes are going into the final build I hope it’s because they have given him more moves we havn’t seen yet. More stun and quicker recovery on his teleports perhaps?
If all they did was nerf him and give him one more hard to land ultra I’m gonna be pretty disappointed. The only reason I play SF4 is b/c of Akuma so this sucks.

Well Capcom is legendary for poor design decisions.

I don’t mind removing the ability to loop. Honestly I’m expecting Sagat to be nerfed, so it shouldn’t affect much anyway. However by increasing the startup time on the poke it will effectively be useless unless they plan to tone down the hit boxes on jabs so that you don’t lose out to jab spam.

If they do make standing HK garbage, then I hope they improve his medium and hard tatsus so that they become, I don’t know, useful outside of combos and crossups.

Also I would gladly trade the HK loop for a two in one-able sweep. Bring back the sweep fireball!

The HK startup is already slow enough, it doesn’t need to be slower. I couldn’t care less about the loop although it’s a neat combo to do, it’s just one less thing to worry about. But messing up the other roundhouse combos is what I’m worried about. I really hope they don’t mess him up, not saying I would jump ship but, I’ll definitely be messing around with other characters.

Until the game is released I think we should all just relax. Even though it is a pretty hefty rumor, until the game is actually released and we receive official frama data, this whole conversastion is mere speculation.


  • Far Standing Hard Kick (Double Kicks) have more start up time.

  • Standing Light Punch can no longer Link into far Standing Hard Kick.

  • Fireball, FADC, far Standing Hard Kick only works on large hitbox characters now.

  • New Ultra: Demon Armageddon. Up, Up + 3x Kick command. Doesn’t seem to have many ways to combo into it, can’t be used as anti-air. Also will miss crouching opponents.

omg !

no comment on this…:((

i was never that good with akuma but i have never thought of using another character because akumas just a fucking badass mofo …until some guys Ryu just jumping heavy punched me out of a raging demon that linked into his ultra WTF doesnt he have enough links to his ultra? and with shin shoryuken coming soon to this jerks arsenal i honestly hope they give us some sort of buff for akuma all i seem to be hearing is how hes being nerfed and messed up in super almost ruining the game for me before ive got it, suppose i could learn bison for super

I officially hate Capcom. Gouki didn’t need to be touched. His matchups were mostly 5-5’s god damn it.

“Hm, let’s see here…According to the community, this character is pretty evened out! I think we oughta go ahead and nerf his most useful poke…Also, let’s give him a seriously retarded looking and useless new ultra just for the lulz.”

As things stand right now, Ryu has moved up to easily being god tier, which is just fucking great. As if enough people don’t play him already. I know I shouldn’t be this pissed just yet, but it’s kinda hard not to be.

Akuma’s match ups are definitely not mostly 5/5s. He has advantage vs almost the entire roster and goes even with Ryu and I guess Honda and Rufus. Everyone else he beats significantly or has a slight advantage if played at a high level. He has the most tools in the game by far and a lot of characters are overpowered by them. The thing that stops people from complianing as much as they do about about Sagat, Ryu, and Rufus is that Akuma takes a lot of skill to bring out his full power, and has terrible health, meaning you have to work harder than people who use those characters do to bring out the overpowered stuff.

From what I’ve been hearing, Sagat and Ryu are both definitely nerfed as well guys. Ryu isn’t going to be able to combo into ultra nearly as easily as before, and Sagat does less damage and apparently takes more damage too. I doubt Rufus will be entering SSF4 without some kind of nerfs unless Capcom has a conspiracy going on to help Justin Wong continue to dominate the USA for promotional value(lol). I am sure Gief will get some tweaks too.

I’m not jumping ship. I’ve used Akuma in any game he was in as long as he wasn’t banned, but I do admit hearing all of these things have greatly diminished the hype I have for the game. As far as i know his ultra is currently worthless, and he just sounds like he’s isn’t going to be as much fun to play anymore. I am keeping the faith that he will be given some new stuff(system wise or individually) that will still make him a beast. I wouldn’t trip out yet, though. We have 4 months and a lot of things can happen. The vortex appears to still be intact at least. He will still be mix up king I bet.

Wait, Ryu’s god tier now… because Gouki’s s.HK got nerfed? :xeye:

To be honest, I don’t get you guys. One normal gets 1 more startup frame, getting rid of one loop, and possibly making some combo opportunities harder to land… and Akuma’s Dan now? Get real. He still has the best toolset in the game, high damage output, and the best okizeme in the game… but this one extra frame kills him as a character, and it’s the end of the world.

Whatever. The other top tiers on the other hand get reduced damage output (Sagat), or that and possibly less Ultra opportunities (Ryu), or a seemingly worthless low damage Ultra (Balrog), or a seemingly worthless low damage Ultra plus a nerfed EX (Rufus)…

But this one more frame on Akuma’s best poke completely ruins him, and makes him unable to compete with those other top tiers. Laughable.

Unless the combos you BnB are one frame links, the extra startup shouldn’t be a problem (which means bye s.HK -> s.LP loop).

A great normal is a little less great. All I’m concerned about is the new Ultra. Hopefully it’ll have a better command to make it more viable. Maybe even some FADC setups. We’ll see.

I agree with removing the loop, it wasn’t there by design and seemed like a bug/oversight. However, I don’t think it was a good idea to partially remove the ability to FADC a fireball into st.RH. If they want to remove that - remove it. But don’t add more situational crap. FFS, this game is full of stuff that only works in certain situations, against certain characters.

i couldnt have said it better myself.