Feel That You've Been "Cheesed" to Death? READ THIS!

If you’ve ever felt that your opponent online (or offline) has “cheesed you to death,” or gotten a win off you in a “cheap” and/or “cheesy” manner, then read on.

Now first off, let’s look at what you probably consider “cheesy.” I’m guessing that your loss came from someone repeating the same move or sequence of moves over and over again. I’m also guessing that that same move or sequence of move gave you no other obvious options, or that they shut down a favorite tactic of yours.

Now I’m pretty sure that when the above happens, you’re first impulse is to either rage and send hatemail to that person, or rage in the forums about some “cheap” or “cheese” player. However, in the interest of actually helping yourself become better, I’m going to ask you to stop yourself from doing that and actually consider the ff. points.

1. Both you and your opponent want to win.
At the end of the day, all that the game knows is winning or losing. It doesn’t really care about how you get there. Combine that with the fact that winning is generally more enjoyable than losing, then it’s safe to assume that both players want to win and are playing to do so. Of course, you already know this (or at least think you do), however, what’s important is how this relates to the next points.

2. Your loss was your fault.
Yes, I know it’s easier to blame the other guy and say that he was “cheap” or “cheesy,” but that doesn’t help you at all. Both of you were simply (or supposed to be) playing to win.

Now if the other guys is being “cheesy,” then they’re likely using the same move or series of moves throughout the match. Now, considering that that person also wants to win, then it’s safe to say that they have discovered that, against you, using those moves or sequence of moves over and over again is the safest, most efficient way to win. In other words, the other player was simply doing what they thought was necessary to win against you and who can fault them for that. This off course, leads us to our next point.

3. It’s your responsibility to overcome the "cheese."
If you’re being overwhelmed (or at least beaten) by someone using the same move or series of moves over and over again, then at this point you should start to ask yourself why exactly you fall to that move or series of moves. Because honestly, it’s both impossible and unethical to ask people to stop doing that same move or series of moves against you so you can win (because, this is a fighting game, and everyone wants to win).

Now, as I said, it’s your responsibility to figure out why you’re losing to that move or series of moves. It could be a number of reasons, personal bad habits, lack of knowledge, lack of skill or it might simply be a character match up issue. Bad habits are easily taken care of if you make the conscious effort to avoid them. Lack or skill and knowledge can be fixed by practice as well as doing research in sites like SRK. As for character and match up issues, research and work can lead to ways to swing the match up in your favor, if not, well the game begins at the character select screen - sometimes, learning a new character could lead to a better appreciation of the game in the long term.

The point of all these points is this, the temptation to label something as “cheesy” (and/or “cheap”) is nothing but a arbitrary label, a mental roadblock that you’ve put up for yourself that keeps you from becoming a better player. Once you overcome this and actually learn to start thinking critically about your game and how to overcome stuff like this, then you’re on your way to becoming a better player.

I had a situation I kept getting into and got frustrated about…I didnt send the guy messages or anything…just got frustrated with my self…cause I consider myself a smart player but could get past something so basic :

There was this Seth player who played pretty risky…He got hurt…but once he started trying his hand at spacing things turned out a bit different. His fireballs wasnt the problem…or the jump off the wall thing to try to catch me off guard…but when I try to close distance with a regular jump(during the fire ball war)…at this particular distance It seems like I cant really do anything about Seths Focus attack…I tryed sobat…too slow/trades… tryed empty jumping to throw…I still manage to get hit…If I back dashed he also did it and if I just blocked I was under pressure with a risk of grab/Spd/shoryken/attack strings…What’s the proper thing to do? Thanks for any Help.

I play Dee Jay. Forgot to mention that.

Check the DeeJay subforums. Ask around for advice there. Also, try looking for a sparring partner who has a good Seth.

Thought this was a starcraft thread for a sec o.o

Ban the bots!

So what if I spend most of the match jumping and mashing random DP’s… l2p and stfu, kaythxbai


Sent from my T-Mobile G2

Wow d3v, you really know how to attract bots.

OK, bots pruned. You sure know how to entice them dev.

This should be Stickied

Unfortunately, it’s just the nature of fighting games, as they currently are, to reward cheesiness and cheap tactics. It would be better if, instead of having lifebars, the game graded you based on skill and playing with honor. You’d get points for doing long combos (but not infinites) and using all of your fighter’s techniques, and lose points for spamming, not giving the other player a chance to fight back, etc. Then at the end, you receive your final grade, the max being five gold stars. If both players fight well and play with skill, they would both get five stars. As long as you don’t spam or cheat, you would get a minimum of one gold star. All games are more fun when you win, so what could be better than a game where everyone’s a winner?

One of the overused complaints in fighting games is the " you just used the same moves to win ", and variations relating to this being a dishonourable or somehow unsporting and unskilled way to win.

The problem is, often, even amongst those whose ego doesn’t allow them to believe othewise, well they have reduced the opponents playstyle to this no frills “spam” by playing one dimensional themselves or being rather random in what they do.

Often mashers are the quickest to complain about “same moves over and over” when in SSF4 for example they are jumping all over the place and furiously hammering out reversal attempts at every opportunity; this wild approach to the game sometimes catches genuinely competent players out, until they go back to basics and play simple bait and punish.

For someone who has no understanding of fundamentals yet spends a lot of time attacking a training dummy, these basics they have overlooked seem like an easy way to win, especially when pokes and anti-airs are making a mockery out of their one dimensional attempts to land a combo.

The players with a handle on their ego here dial things back a little and tear themselves away from the training dummy and learn the basics, which becomes the foundation with which they land those “training mode” combos. Once understood, at this point, because they are able to mix things up and use fundamentals as well as more advanced tricks, they in turn, force players who would previously “cheese” them to step out of their own comfort zone and change tactics on the fly.

That unfortunate bunch who cannot essentially get over themselves, they’ll still struggle and scrape through uninspiring wins and losses against opponents they feel they have some God given right to brush aside.

It’s important to look at how a game is defined before it is actually made. This definition process includes making up the rules of said game, which in the case of fighting games would be “Two players select one/two/three characters and fight for a set amount of time and rounds. The winner of each round would be the one who depletes the opponent’s life bar first with the ultimate winner being the one who achieved this goal for X rounds.” A rough definition of course, but I believe it makes the point decently. Such a definition would obviously be clear when one first observes FG matches for the first time. Now, this definition is further enriched when adding other details like gauges, special moves, grabs, etc etc etc.

This is generally how all kinds of games were made up for decades. The great thing about video games now is that the rules are embedded in their code so basically you cannot break them (exploits not withstanding). Back when all we could do was throw stones at each other in order to play war it was easier for people to cheat even if there was a rule stating “Don’t hit people on the head/balls/etc.” because if you did get hit in one of those places the person could easily declare “it was an accident”. Unless a video game has a counter of how many times a player performed a specific tactic during a match and automatically causes that player to lose because he/she tried to break the cap, anything goes when playing video games. In a nutshell, when the game declares that you are KO’ed, you are KO’ed and thus are the loser. End of story. It’s utterly ridiculous to call any tactic cheesy or cheap, especially when it’s working. The person using it is obviously doing something right because he/she is KO’ing you with it. As it was stated in the OP, it is the receiving end’s responsibility to recognize that the opponent is winning and find a way to beat him/her. Anybody resorting to calling the opponent names/calling out “cheese/cheapness” or generally not recognizing their shortcomings is in the wrong. This is even more so online where players don’t know each other.

I’ve been in the position of calling out “cheap” and have since realized that if the game accepts it, then it’s okay. The sooner a new player accepts this fact the more enjoyment they can get out of playing any video game, especially FG’s. If one cannot do anything about these tactics well then it’s high time they found another game to play. I do wish that this topic be stickied as well.

Lol. Um… I like winning just as much as the next guy, but this is why America is going down the drain right now. Not everyone is a winner. Wins are earned not given. Same with respect, and admiration, and dignity, and even equality. So many of the things people here seem to take for granted, are in fact, not. Awarding gold stars to people just for being themselves is why kids in school don’t even try till about the 5th grade when schoolwork starts to get mildly challenging, and a lot of times not even then because they’ve already been trained to feel good about themselves without any basis.

Street Fighter is a competitive game for a reason. Where is the competition and the reward for triumphing over an opponent if you and a friend can just sit there taking turns trading combos for gold stars?

I think Crashd might have been employing sarcasm.

Bailzebub, beat me to it. I read this thread the other day, and after playing a fair amount this weekend I felt compelled to basically post something along these lines:

“The problem is, often, even amongst those whose ego doesn’t allow them to believe othewise, well they have reduced the opponents playstyle to this no frills “spam” by playing one dimensional themselves or being rather random in what they do.”

While a tense game with control passing back and forth repeatedly, lots of carefully considered spacing and footsies, awesome zoning, and clever mixups and minds games is what I enjoy, and will leave me vibrating with adrenaline, the fact of the matter is that most often the skill level of my opponent, and to a varying degree, the amount of lag in the match will reduce my game down to what looks like “cheap” play.

Its no fault of my own if your answer to all situations is to jump back and mk or to SRK. Once I’ve established that your game plan is less of a series of “ifs” and “thens” and more of a string of “thens” I’ll bait and punish or get you into a corner and knee you in the face until I win.

Until you can answer the “cheap” tactic and see how the player responds to your solution you can’t say one way or the other if the player is one dimensional or not. You simply don’t have the information to make that determination. Doing so makes you a salty scrub, and will likely hinder your improvement in the game.

Another flaw in thinking is botching execution, say on your Ultra, which results in losing a close match and blaming that mistake on your loss. Then you think to yourself that you really need to work on your execution, and head to training mode for an hour. You lost that match just as much when you missed a punish, or miss judged spacing and took damage after throwing a projectile at the start of the match, or went for a low damage combo when you had a higher damage combo available but you were to flustered to attempt it.

I’ve been cheesed to death by the smell DDR players in Chinatown Fair many times…
Gouda FTL

I personally love it when people cheese. Especially by spamming the same move over and over. When your opponent does that, all they are really doing is giving you the opportunity to practice getting around it.