Fighting team clockwork


#1

i’m writing this b/c i am currently engaged in a ft20 vs a clockwork player and trying to break this team down on paper. i’m not having too much trouble, but i love totally locking down team strats.

strider:
-ouroborus…he needs meter so stunt his ability to gain meter and he is crippled…take the offene whether it be fullscreen or up-front

-he heavily depends on doom for cover while he pulls his shenanigans…if doom could be taken out early, strider would be crippled…snapback for assist kill…snap in for point kill

-strider will likely try to keep you at bay while he builds meter, if necessary or he may try to melee up close with doom cover or sent drones…try to interrupt his full-screen play…which assst takes out doom rocks? invincible anti-airs (ken,psylocke, cyclops), beams/multiple projectiles (mag,ironman,iceman,storm, blackheart)

doom:
-if he ever graces point, he will spend most of his time in the air dumping photon shots…keep him on the ground by meeting him in the air with someone capable or bring along a useful aaa or fullscreen beamer to bring him down (capcom,blackheart,ken,storm?)

sentinel:
-sent will do what he does best and reign terror from above, but now he’ll be backed by every rock doom can manage to pick up…play sent like you would play doom, but with more caution to avoid stray rocks; fullscreen ant-airs would stuff doom and keep sent busy if you’re playing fullscreen; invincible anti-airs would work wonders up close allowing you to possibly manage a snapback to assist kill

order:
players will likely play sent first in order to build meter for strider while keeping you dodging rocks and extended legs and frying pans. keep the pressure on while keeping sent outta the air and doom off-screen

some players will play strider on point…take him out, block when you have to but take advantage of every opening, while remaining a fullsreen threat if he ever tries to keep you tied with rocks, dogs, and birds

other teams vs clockwork:
msp-mag should never allow sent the chance to breath. sj with storm proj trailing the ground, ad uf if necessary to get the height advantage over sent…stay close while pullng out psylocke…consistent execution w/ mag is a must have to stand a chance
storm will play similar to mag but can punish better fs and maintain more air time/control


#2

The one thing you can’t assume about clockw0rk players is that he’ll play it the same as another. Thats a pretty weird dynamic about the team. Those of us who still choose to run s\d have different styles. Someone like snakeshotpeople is hella patient and will wait for a good spot. On the other hand, someone like me is hella agressive and I will try to break you.

I can’t count how many strider\sent victories I’ve goten over the over years. Too many to remember. Any serious s\d player understands that no one likes doom assist so they will try to take him out first. With that being said, s\d players have learned strider\sent for such an occasion. Its still pretty hard to get next to strider and he has some decent shit with it.

some advanced strategies revolve around building bar while you trap so you never give up the momentum. Really hard to do successfully seeing how it takes a million inputs to properly do. Strider can get around 1 bar for every trap rep so techinically, once he activates, he’ll always have another to fall back on.

all though, these tactics revolve around the player more than the actual character.

You didn’t address the fact that you need to know how to guard cancel a strider players trap patterns. Depending on the player, you’ll run into 5 or so retrap patterns but you can also run into a player who has 10+ trap patterns. And if the s\d player was smart enough, each pattern has a different guard cancel spot. So mashing push block won’t work. Ideally, strider wants his trap to revolve around push blocks. His retrap process does enough block stun that he cancel out guard cancels hence the phrase anti guard cancel trap.

Its quite a complicated fight and the strength of s\d is based upon how much the other guy knows about your squad.


#3

^ This man re-trapped me with so many different strings, & the only way to escape was to guard cancel, but the correct timing for the pushblock changes with the different strings he does. Fighting against that shit was no joke for someone like me with a lack of advanced strider competition.

A mean seriously a decent sent is gonna build a few bars. A decent doom is gonna build a bar or 2. Almost no matter what. Strider is coming almost no matter what you do. Your best bet is prolly to snap strider and guard break to unmashables/some really high damage shit. Hes alot easier to guard break than doom, id rather play against sent/doom than strider/sent after playing against Shoultz.

A very serious understanding of the trap and your guard canceling options out of it are VITAL for playing against a good clockwork. Obviously characters with alot of space control like storm, sent + AAA, and even cable/cyke have alot better chance of catching a slip up full screen than someone like mags.

This is a good thread idea, and although I dont expect any strider/doom players to systematically break down the weaknesses of the team for everyone to see, any talk about the basics of re-trap defense from seriously good strider players would be greatly appreciated by more ppl than just me im sure.


#4

Shoult hit the spot. On a side note, Strider’s limbs are pretty fast and have a lot of priority, he can catch a lot of combos toe-to-toe really easy. My suggestion is to try and take advantage of some of his aggression. Random supers and stuff like that really aggravate a Strider player, I should know, I use to have that problem in the past. This isn’t easy to beak down on paper simply for the fact that Clockw0rk has no real counter. Everyone has a bad matchup against certain teams, but counters, not here. (I generally don’t believe in true counters anyway. It basically boils down to who ever has the most experience. Doing something out of the blue and unexpected is probably the best thing against inexperienced Clockw0rks, that’s the best I can help you with. By the way, Paul, I like your sig, haha.


#5

anti-guard cancel traps? sounds interesting. any examples of play you can show me?

also, i don’t assume every s/d player plays the same, but am just pointing out some tendencies. there are a lot of ifs in there and one must play accordingly

you hit in on the head for the most part when you said it’s the player and not the character


#6

Its kinda hard to recognize untill your trying to get out of it. Like, if he did the same one over and over again, you would learn the timing to guard cancel out, but he does soooo many different ones (I would say over ten) That there is prolly at least 5 different pushblock to escape timing scenarios, and at the same time:

None of them look the same, but they all look similar.

You have to look at machine position when orbs are thrown, what/when animals/rocks are coming out, teleports, and more importantly than I ever noticed untill playing it, what normals strider is throwing out with the orbs.

Stuff like dashxxjab strings keep you completely locked where as other normals push you back more for doom to relayer your blockstun/cross you up when strider goes for a teleport. There are so many tools at hand while orbs are up, knowing many/most of them is the first step i think…


#7

guard canceling revolves around 2 things. A pushblock, and a neutral input.

Striders orb+doom create enough block stun to stop a guard cancel from happening. Whenever you pushblock and go to neutral to allow for a guard cancel, you’ve basically tipped your hand vs anti guard cancel trap. Now I know where your guard cancel will be and how long it will take for it before your guard cancel is activated. With that knowledge, I just base my trap patterns around pushblocks so you’ll never get your guard cancel off in time and you’re just stuck in blockstun. With anti guard cancel trap, I want you to pushblock because for 90% of the time, I have a pattern to keep you in check. Eventually, players just give up with the pushblock and just start blocking and holding up to jump out. Not knowing that strider has guaranteed trap patterns vs people who don’t pushblock. So if you pushblock, you’re fucked and if you stay still you’re fucked.

and the neutral input means you’re not blocking low so strider can kick them in the toes kinda easy.

Its a big problem. If strider gets 3-4 trap patterns back to back, people start mashing there way out because they can’t move nor attack. Its that desperation that a strider player wants aka the breaking point. How long will someone deal with trap before they start mashing and hope to get lucky?

amir was right about striders limbs. They have excellent priority. Strider doesn’t have one bad normal in his arsenal so not only can he trap you but strider can also do a great bit of CH-ing as well. Also, when he said random shit works against s\d is dead on accurate. Strider players like to think ahead. Its one of the few ways we try to stay ahead of our opponents. Now if we’re looking for something and something else comes out instead, it forces an s\d player to take a step back and respsect the crazy. Which is usually enough time to get away and put strider in a position where he doesn’t want to be. I don’t know how many times I’ve been hit by random air LA with storm to counter strider when he has orbs.


#8

this thread is awesome, too bad i have nothing to contribute to it except, STAY IN THE FUCKING AIR!!!

Edit: FOREVER!!!


#9

random air lightning storms after orb activation = gdlk!!!
magnetic tempest during sj after strider’s orb activation = gdlk!
any air super that eats time, provides cover, keeps you in the air during orb activation = gdlk!
special moves that give you air time during orb activation = gdlk!

shoultzula, the way you describe strider makes his game seem very intricate. i don’t think i have ever played an s/d player with that much trap knowledge nor do i think i possess that much trap knowledge with s/d…waiting to spot a pushblock in order to reposition yourself and nullify the escape? unheard of. i just make sure i can keep shit out and prevent time for opponent’s input…also jumping back vs s/d does help in the fact that it keeps you from being stuck IN BETWEEN strider’s orbs and doom’s rocks as someone mentioned in a thread elsewhere, but jumping back too long will cause you to screw yourself when you find you can jump back no longer (the corner!!!)

i’m going to scoop up a quick vid of clockwork (the player from cali lol) and see what stuff he does and what happened…brb


#10

imo, storms air super is better @ stopping strider than magento’s. Strider can easily counter SJ tempest with orbs, sj and block and throw rings while in block stun to hit him out of it.

The reason why storm gets away with it is because her super goes all directions and kinda stops strider short of making it to her. However, you can time shit after she’s already done her super with SJ attack strings because of her recovery time. Not to mention that if storm si being agressive, i’ll let the bitch SJ, LA to stall out my orbs. I know she will come down on top of me when my orbs run out so I’ll throw a short bomb and try to mix her upon landing for hella life. Something like that, into a trap rep will probably do 40% life for the cost of a bar. Not to mention thats one less hail she can do @ that point in time.

not many air specials nulify striders orbs. He can kinda stop a lot of things if he blocks first then throws rings.

The problem with jumping upbck is that it will lead to teleport throw+doom, activate. Thats such a huge counter hit into trap.

j360 has crazy exp vs s\d seeing how he plays amir on the regular. I’d take his advice on how to stop the team.


#11

[media=youtube]OqQRljC5UrA[/media]

this is clockwork vs soo and the footage is from mid-07 so a little recent…

soo is playing magneto/cable/psylocke so he intends to use his mag to put pressure on while breaking up the doom assist and holding strider in check with psylocke’s aa. he also has cable in case he finds the orb/rocks too much to handle h2h…he can use mag proj assist to interrupt strider full-screen if necessary and use psy aa to give him space to pull out an ahvb

clockwork is playing…clockwork! surprise! he starts with strider instead of sentinel??? he knows soo intends to rush him down and deems it smarter to start the trapping from the jump. he has confidence in his strider game and knows he can build the meter he needs while being on point

the match starts:

-strider jumps over mag w/ a lk while calling sent drones, not considering the gamble worth it to try and beat out mag…mag does c.lk knowing how fast his move is and calls psy aa to scoop strider
** the result:** strider hits the ducking mag with a j.lk, stunts psy’s aa and crosses up w/ drones behind him…mag sj out of the drones
=smart strider=

-mag has air advantage over strider and feels good now. he lands in attempt to deck strider and succeeds in connecting a hit…BUT, strider called a bird against his airborne opp and the bird hits mag interrupting his assault
=smart strider, lucky strider=

-strider dashes back and creates the space he needs to activate orbs while calling doom…mag calls psy aa in case strider attempts to do any up-close bravo while taking to the air; he then dashes df with his prioritizing hp
the result: mag’s sj.hp takes out the doom assist, but doom ate the hit for strider who now has orbs forcing the up close mag to now block
=thanks doom=

-strider tosses orbs to hold mag while he warps up and behind him for a hit, lands, goes for the c.short, mag blocks all successfully
=strider does some chip=

-mag PUSHBLOCKS strider, knowing the TRUE chip only comes from the orbs around strider’s body…strider, after being pushblocked, throws orbs to hold mag in place while calling sent’s drones and warping up and behind mag
** the result:** mag pushblocks strider, BUT it seems he was mashing b/c after he regained space his c.hp and psy-aa came out…mag/psy gets hit with orbs and drones, and strider wails on them both
WHAT DOES STRIDER TO THEM? he launches them for an aerial rave…

-mag rolls towards strider and calls psy-aa knowing he wants oh so bad to rape the ninja…strider jumps over mag while calling doom
** the result:** doom rocks hit psy and she’s caught while mag is free

-mag sj back and finally ad uf to land other side of screen past doom and above strider…strider notices mag is descending so he activates orbs…mag notices strider activated orbs, so he pulls magnetic tempest for air-time and stuff…strider sjs close to mag while blocking
the result: strider is suspended while blocking mag’s tempest and mag is temporarily safe, but as mag’s tempest ends, they both fall. strider’s orbs are still activated and mag eats them as they descend…mag is eventually freed from the combo and is able to block…for some reason before he lands, mag stops blocking to perform sj.lp and eats 1 orb, barely regaining block before the next orb reaches him

-strider is still on the orb offense upon landing, so he calls doom and warps up and behind mag, pinning the poor god between rocks and fading orbs…mag stands to block the descending strider and PUSHBLOCKS again to get strider the frick outta his face to take as less chip as possible
**the result: **doom is still throwing rocks at mag’s back. strider gets pushblocked away, BUT, strider, knowing he was pushblocked, dashes in w/ a c.lk and is just short of a connect. as doom shoots his last series of rocks at mag, the rocks PUSH mag back to strider, allowing strider to pull some nice moves on the blocking mag

-strider finishes his block chain, and sends a dog running towards mag…mag sj over the dog and ad df with a fierce while calling psy’s aa
result: strider recovers in time from the dog to jump backwards while calling sent’s drones…psy takes out sent and strider, but gets reamed by the drones…mag watches all this happen as he is forced to block the drones, itching to dash in and pick up strider

-strider rolls towards mag and calls drone’s upon getting up (thinking mag would dash towards his body?)…mag sj and ad df to try and catch strider with the overhead, lands does some low hits (going under the drones) and calls psy-aa to end with a launcher
** result:** strider simply called sent, blocked high, then blocked low, so sent ate the hits from mag and the psy assist

-strider jumps back, escaping mags sj ad df fierce overhead…strider activates orbs and calls sent’s drones…mag calls psy and sj back…as psy eats orbs, mag ad uf to wait out the orbs and descends with a sj.hp in attempt to out prioritize strider
** result:** strider warps up and away…mag eats orbs and fails at his attempt to catch strider…mag lands blocking and strider is about to lose his orb activation

-strider calls doom and warps up and behind mag…mag pushblocks but does not move, trapped in between doom and strider


OH SHIT! HERE IT IS!!!*** lol

-strider waits as he notices mag just pushblocked…at 0:51 i believe strider attempts to catch mag just as he exits his guard…but he misses and mag just blocks low…strider does his regular block chain and sends out a dog…mag sj and ad df to strider attempting to finally catch the buzzer
**result: ** strider calls sent’s drones and jumps away from mag and away from the near corner…mag eats drones, strider having turned his back to them…strider jumps and smacks mag for a combo off drones

-mag, with a bleeding psy assist while almost a goner himself while still facing a near-perfect clockwork, dashes forward to perform his c.hk slide while calling psy…mag attempts to cover the ground and cover the air in this assault
result: strider jumps up and away, calls doom, then double-jumps up and forward allowing him to evade psy and pin mag below…mag/psy eat rocks…mag mashes a j.lp…eats a smack from strider sending him back into the flail of rocks

-strider jumps away and mag rushes forward…mag reaches strider, barely evading his j.hp…mag performs c.lk,c.lk and calls psy…strider blocks, jumps and calls for sent’s drones
**result: **mag/psy eat drones, strider sends forward a dog and activates orbs…mag responds from full-screen with a cable-aa assist, leading me to believe he has just failed miserably at a counterxxahvb attempt…cable goes up and through the orbs, but strider catches him on the way down…strider calls doom, locking cable overhead while keeping mag at bay with orbs…mag jumps back and drops his guard (wonder what he tried to do?)…mag DIES and cable assist is left on-screen w/ strider and doom. doom’s rocks finish up and send cable just in front of strider, allowing strider to launch cable for the attempted assist kill…strider continues to launch cable over and over again, but mistimes a launch after getting cable down to near 5% health

-strider runs and jumps to the side cable will appear from, he calls doom and double-jumps over cable…cable calls psy-aa, taking doom out…strider does his block chain and sends out a far bomb…
result: cable catches strider with ahvb and the bomb falls behind him…after ahvb cable falls to the ground but is unable to link another ahvb b/c he must block the exploding bomb (OMG!)

-cable dashes forward calls psy and jumps to perform his ahvb…strider sends a far bomb and activates orbs
** result:** cable is too high to hit strider, and strider isn’t close enough to get hit by psy aa…strider slides under the beam to catch psy with orbs and explosion from bomb…psy escapes, but strider jumps up under cable while calling drones to hit him with orbs and cable DIES

-psylocke appears on point, but stands there, so strider dashes forward and smacks her and she DIES

CLOCKWORK wins…

the mistakes of the Mag player are evident and catastrophic, but still, it is apparent these two are both good players. gg

[media=youtube]OqQRljC5UrA[/media]

here, clockwork employs the SAME exact solid play style vs dp’s sent/cable/cyc

the way he plays, clockwork is a VERY solid team…i have to say though, i don’t see 10+ trap set-ups as mentioned? and clockwork is a pretty advanced player of this team


#12

man i’ll fuck that frail ass ninja up

stay ahead of that shit foo:lovin:

once you learn how to break down sent/doom, it’s pretty easy to learn that you need to trade with strider everytime he orbs.

I should help out here paul, ruin the ninja:arazz:


#13

I feel the importance of any s/d team is what the 3rd can provide to the team. Sent has the best options with drones and gives what Strider needs to stay alive. If a team clockw0rk player can play Sent like he’s using Santhrax, I feel the team is very strong even if the strider employs simple trap patterns and barely mixs up, the life advantage alone will be very tough to beat if his Sent gives you a hard time or even manages to kill off a character which means unblockable xx super or lock down in the corner with doom making sure you stay in that corner.

Personally if you wanted to build a counter team to a s/d player, you’d throw something that his Sent couldn’t handle ie Sent/Cyc, Blackheart AA, cable. That’s pretty much what it revolves around in my opinion.


#14

^ I agree. The hardest matchups for me personally are the ones where my Sent/Doom has to really scrap it more than usual, making my strider have to work harder, work more, and even have less bar to work with. I don’t really think it’s all about counter teams really, but rather counter players who have had a lot of exp against sent/doom and know how to shut it down easily. I imagine you would be one of those, mixup!

When my team is in the position where the usefulness of my Sent/Doom is limited , it basically generates more pressure for my Strider play to be on cuz he has to handle more. The way I see it, every trap rep is a chance for me to mess something up. The more trap reps Strider has to do to win, the higher the chance of him pulling something out that makes him lose, if that makes sense. And that’s when my execution will slip, eventually. Shoult has talked about something like this before I believe, correct me if I’m wrong.

I’ve played Genghis’s Sent/Strider/Doom more than a few times, and therefore I agree about your point about the team still being strong if the Sentinel is good and can pick up some of the slack. Genghis’s strider on point has to do like three trap reps to kill me after his sent/doom plows through half my team.


#15

unknownenemyzero, we are decent enough players so i’m going to post our footage here for review if that’s ok with you? you got your wins, and i got mine :smiley:

i don’t want to formulate my main team to simply handle clockwork, but i do want a team versatile enough to handle such a situation if the need arises in tourney play…i don’t mind switching out my 3rd assist to better accomodate my attacks


#16

I don’t mind if you want to post here, judge.

Yeah, it’s tough to stick with just one or two teams for tournament play, but I feel as long as you keep you’re Storm in situations like vs s/d I feel you can handle anything.


#17

i’m only going to post the vs clockwork stuff for the purpose of this thread. these vids are just to show how a few team mechanics (backed by player skill or lack of…lol) faired vs clockwork.

be warned:
as far as sentinel: we are not sanford kelly lvl…yet
as far as cable: i am not rowtron/duc lvl…yet
as far as storm: i am not a pro storm…yet
as far as blackheart: i did not play in b5…
as far as clockwork: unknown is still perfecting his trap game…but i’ll be ready
as far as the vids: enjoy the footage
as far as my msp: my mag is a joke…and prolly always will be

the following will be replaced with links as i upload them and are in the following format:
player1 v player2 : raw file/link
*there is only one person who will be playing clockwork: UNKNOWNENEMYZERO

  1. clockwork vs msp (scooter? ryry? likely ryry b/c scooter mostly plays mss) : 3617
    YOUTUBE UPLOAD FAILED…any suggestions? I contacted youtube after running through their HelpCenter, so I await their response on this one…

  2. clockwork vs mss (scooter…told you :smiley: ) : 3620
    YOUTUBE UPLOAD FAILED

  3. clockwork vs mss (scooter…o_o ) : [media=youtube]6aKnTFz1SwI[/media]
    don’t be afraid to activate those orbs strider!!! don’t spend too much time full-screen hanging out with your own assist naked…if sent is flying in the air, don’t warp, sj and block…but then again, this is footage from like 4-5mnths ago…i think your strider play has gotten smarter…just don’t ever be as intimidated by rushdown as you were in this match, hold your own

  4. mss (scooter) v clockwork : 3624
    YOUTUBE UPLOAD FAILED

  5. clockwork v iceman/storm/doom (rlj) : 3645

  6. ^2 : 3646

  7. ^3 : 3647

  8. ^4 : 3648

  9. clockwork v watts (rlj) : 3649

  10. ^2 : 3650

  11. ^3 : 3651

  12. ^4 : 3653

  13. ^5 : 3654

  14. ^6 : 3656

  15. ^7 : 3657

  16. ^8 : 3658

  17. ^9 : 3661

  18. clockwork v cable/sentinel/cyclops (rlj) : 3667

  19. clockwork v cable/sentinel/ken (rlj) : 3670

  20. ^2 : 3672

  21. ^3 : 3673

  22. clockwork v msp (rlj) : 3675

  23. ^2 : 3676

  24. ^3 : 3677

  25. ^4 : 3678

  26. ^5 : 3679

  27. ^6 : 3680

ok, this is an ongoing upload project, so stay tuned for the next available vid! after the last upload, i’m done with this fighting clockwork thread…unknown and i have a MM in May at the ‘757Gamer’s LockDown’ event, and that’s when it will be more than proper to say:

“Shit just got real”

edit: i’m going to end uploading the vids for this thread since i was able to find an archive by shoultzula of a myriad of s/d matches…the link is below


#18

There are a few strats that completely shut down sent\doom. The only time I ever beat mixup with strider\d is when my strider goes into beast mode and I just can’t be stopped. Then again, I’ve played quite a few people and whenever I play like that, I win just about every time.

if you shut down sent\doom and force strider to do all the work there are a few key things to recognize. Shutting down sent\doom will leave strider with no bar. Let the ninja dump it off and then go rush him down once its gone. iirc, it takes about 10-15 trap reps to chip 1 character to death. Another thing to point out is that if sent\doom doesn’t do anything, strider is forced to carry the whole team on his shoulders. He has to do SOOOOO much shit to make up for lack of bar its not even funny. He’ll eventually fuck up sooner or later. Weather it be a bad trap pattern or an incorrect position judgment. All you have to do is know a little about strider\doom and work it out from there. Strider players like to use activations to sometimes stop bad things from happening like if mag gets around a doom pattern. If you keep putting strider in the spot where he has to activate, he’ll eventually run out of bar.

Blocking strider can sometimes be tricky but that type of shit depends on the player using him. The instnat overhead during orbs, using the orbs momentum to cause weird 50\50 angles and last but not least not blocking low. Some of the shit I discovered about strider, you DO NOT want to take a hit because he has the ability to kill a full character off one or two bars.

clockw0rk told me that strider only needs 2 bars to win a round which I find is rather hard to do. Clock has the ability to constantly hit people low and he told me he goes to hit them low when they’re trying to guard cancel. Its not like you can argue against the guy, the team is named after him for a reason.


#19

Wow guys, All the input is greatly appreciated! It is true that i’ve seen Mixup rape S/D with like sent + AA pretty much like every time. Its all about positioning and unfly blocking at the right times, knowing where to be, like he said thinking ahead.

I guess that just comes with experience vs. the team. That being said I did notice myself being hit a lot by shoultz’s strider while I was trying to GC. Also, the “instant” overhead seemed (maybe its just me) to be pretty predictable, easy to react to/block. Although the option being there in itself is still pretty scary when your blocking a bunch of shit already. Also, I never realized you were punishing pretty much only my back n.jumps with the port, throw into doom until you said that. Ill have to watch myself back jumping when you aren’t already doing something.

I have one question, how much meter does strider gain if you stay airborne 60% of orbs? Does he really get that much more meter from making you block something as opposed to just throwing it out? If you try to simply avoid the orbs, I would imagine that would set you up for a re-trap as he can more freely gain meter while he isn’t trying to pin you down/you are trying to stay away?

The more I think about it, the more inclined i am to just snap, guard break ninja to unmash. Even if he survives and somehow gets away, a couple of E.M. disruptor’s
or a Hailstorm trading would end the madness for good.


#20

imo, the biggest strength of s\d is not knowing how he works and etc… so I think I’ll keep my mouth shut for a while :rofl: