Fixing SFV Juri [What's your thoughts?]

juri

#1

Reasonable and necessary changes.

Keep In Mind THIS IS SFV.

Suggest before you vote please.


[Deleted] HK Fuharenkyaku requires no store.


[details=Spoiler]Juri’s need to store the Fuharenkyakus indicates that the stored Fuharenkyakus are deadly and would make Juri overpowered if they did not need to be stored. What makes the stored Fuharenkyakus deadly is the combination option of stored HK Fuharenkyaku into stored LK Fuharenkyaku.

DEADLY

  • Stored LK Fuharenkyaku (which requires 1 store) is a slow moving Projectile and is safe to use On Block (-02 frames Advantage On Block).

NOT DEADLY

  • Stored MK Fuharenkyaku is a Confirmed Hit Combination Extender that gives Juri decent damage output and is a below average tool when used alone or in combination with LK or HK Fuharenkyaku.

NORMAL

  • HK Fuharenkyaku [which requires no store according to this change list] is a Ranged Special Attack that is Punishable On Block when used alone (-06 Frames Advantage On Guard) but can be made Safe to use when followed by a stored LK Fuharenkyaku (which requires 1 store).

Why not free MK Fuharenkyaku as well?
Juri must store MK Fuharenkyaku and work hard for Hit Confirmed Combination damage because of the efficiency of HK Fuharenkyaku [Poke]. MK Fuharenkyaku can be stored practically after a Hit Confirmed Combination that ends in Ryodansatsu [otherwise called the Initial Combination] or after a Hit HK Fuharenkyaku that was used while holding a stored LK Fuharenkyaku [required no use of LK Fuharenkyaku because HK Fuharenkyaku was not blocked].

Why free a Fuharenkyaku in the first place?
Storing 3 Fuharenkyakus is one too many for Juri’s build in SFV. The Fuharenkyaku store limit will now be 2 (Juri’s Projectile and her Hit Confirmed Combination Extender).
[/details]
After more research I’ve found that this is unnecessary. Once 1 of the charged Fuharenkyakus are obtained there are ways to keep them forever.

  1. Use stored LK Fuharenkyaku > wait to see if opponent jumps (if so Anti-air/if not> store up to 2 Fuharenkyakus.

  2. MK Fuharenkyaku can be stored practically after a Hit Confirmed Combination that ends in Ryodansatsu [otherwise called the Initial Combination] or after a Hit Raw HK Fuharenkyaku that was used while holding a stored LK Fuharenkyaku [required no use of LK Fuharenkyaku because HK Fuharenkyaku was not blocked (LK Fuharenkyaku would render you Safe if HK Fuharenkyaku was blocked].

  3. Whiff Punish into stored HK Fuharenkyaku only and then charge whatever Fuharenkyaku you want after.


Stored Fuharenkyakus save over Rounds.


It is simply unfair that Juri must work hard to store 3 Fuharenkyakus and 1 Charged V-Skill only to by chance win with them still held and lose them the next Round.


Backward Walk Speed = 0.04


Juri must have this above average Backward Walk Speed in relatively to SFV not only do to the fact that the character must rely solely on her fair Neutral/Footsie play style in which she can only Hit Confirm Light and Medium attacks [ie: st.MP] at an extremely close range but must also compete while storing 3 Fuharenkyakus and 1 Charged V-Skill.

Also Juri

  • Already Loses Space do to moving away (towards the corner) from opponent to store Fuharenkyakus raw [Let her run away properly at least].
  • does not have Armor on any Special Move/Attack
  • does not have a Command Throw
  • does not have a Command Dash
  • does not have average or above average Normal Attacks
  • does have 1 Projectile which must be stored and travel below common Projectile range.

Extended the Hit Box for initial Fuharenkyaku by 1 Tile forward.


{AFK}


Hit Box positioned at the top of EX Ryodansatsu's animation ark.


In retaliation to abusive Aerial Special Attacks [ie: Zanku Hadoken] that are unstoppable to Juri without this EX Ryodansatsu or CA.


Kasatushu Starts Up immediately just as Charged Kasatushu does.


The wait time after the activation/tap of Juri’s V-Skill (Uncharged) for her to send forward is simply unnecessary.

  • The V-Skill (Uncharged) simply travels slower, does not go through Projectiles and does not hit on the way.
  • The V-Skill (Charged) simply travels faster, goes through Projectiles and hits on the way.]

Critical Art has Armor (infinite) against Projectiles.


When (if you have the skill and read) reacting to Projectiles [whether it be Zanku Hadoken, Sonic Boom or Kikoken] with Juri’s Critical Art Juri takes damage and hits. She will now take Gray Damage (she would not die if life reaches zero). This ability was given to Juri thanks to the Feng Shui Engine.


#2

We already have a balance thread and this would just make Juri retarded and wouldn’t last a whole balance patch.


#3

@“DevilJin 01” 01 Can you send me a link to the balance thread. I haven’t been here a while. All you said is “this”. What would make her retarded. Make sence.


#4

@TRB_Spirit
While I think she needs better properties in general i disagree with everthing in your list.


#5

@Garu you wanna get some matches 2m?


#6

How to fix Juri?

-Reduce start up on crouch mp so stand mp into crouch mp links without a counter hit. Or have stand mp link into crouch mk. Just give her more ways/links to use her resources. Even with the new stand mp, stand mk xx cancel, she still feels limited to me in that department without relying on counter hits.

-Her leg raise animation needs to be faster and given a better hitbox to help if someone is jumping in on you (like they had in SF4/SFxT, you could sometimes AA with a fireball charge). If you look at Juri in SF4 and SFxT, her fireball store animation was much faster so it was safer and she wasn’t giving up as much space just to have a decent combo ender or filler. It’s so SLOW in SFV, your opponent can close in on you or jump on you very easily if you need to do a raw store. Space is very important, and she has to give it up at times just to be able to do decent damage. How silly is that!?

-Her fireballs in SF4 + SFxT had other uses other than combo extension, she could also choose to zone with the fireballs, while in SFV they are mostly used for damage. Light fireball isn’t very good at zoning due to terrible range. Extending the range, slightly increasing the damage and giving it better frame advantage on block would help SFV Juri.

I think these 3 buffs would really help her without breaking her.


#7

@ShadolooDoll I really agree with the cr.MP having 5f start up. Juri needs to get in close to do weak damage and before that just to get decent damage she must charge MK Fuharenkyaku.
(Will add)

A Hit Box increase (further) on the Fuharenkyaku Charge is indeed necessary.
(Will add)

Although I would not increase the LK Fuharenkyaku Charge speed as it was meant for the opponent to be able to have a chance to punish her in SFV with a jump in which I agree with. What the problem is; she’s not receiving anything above average for her Fuharenkyaku charges which is why I chose to release HK Fuharenkyaku [I explained in detail why MK Fuharenkyaku would still require store].
(Will not add)

I would leave the “Fireball” travel length alone with my changes because of the added Neutral pressure she would receive because of non-Charge HK Fuharenkyaku [I explained this too indirectly].
(Will not add)

Keep In Mind THIS IS SFV.


#8

How to patch Juri

I would start at the one thing that is really hurting Juri’s gameplay, and that’s Fuha charging. I don’t want to get rid of it , just retool it. If the Fuha charge is suppose to be Juri’s way of tapping into the Feng Shui Engine, then lets make the gameplay for it reflect that. As it stands right now, Juri’s battle potential is pretty much locked behind a single technique. So below is the changes i would like to see:

  • (The release forms of the Fuha attacks are usable with out charging them).
    —This will give Juri players access to all of their tools just like the rest of the cast from the start without having to prep anything. Plus overall increasing her damage potential. But this will change the way some of the Fuhas will work…

  • (Make MK Fuha an overhead attack but it can not “rekka” into another Fuha technique)
    —Anybody who plays Juri will tell you that this needs to happen. The technique needs to have some more utility besides a combo filler / hit confirm tool. Plus it has almost the same frame data as Senkaikyaku { f+MK }. It literally has one more frame of startup. This is just something needed to make her pressure game stronger.

  • ( Change Fuha command to QCB+ P )
    — Here’s where I would retool the Fuha. By doing this command for the Light, Medium, or Heavy version, you gain the ability to use the V-Trigger version of that Fuha technique once. To do so again, you must do a Fuha charge or V-Trigger. this give the Fuha charge a lot of purpose and utility. Plus this give Juri a damage increase without changing the current values of her attacks that much.

  • ( Change the V-Trigger version of HK Fuha to juggle the opponent higher )
    — This gives Juri players a great way to cash in some serious damage. It also gives players the ability to CA mid-screen from it. Plus this will help give Juri more time to set up her pressure better.

-(Increae the hitbox of the Fuha Charge forward and upward)
— Pretty much speaks for itself. This will extend the push back of the technique and not get stuffed so bad on jump ins.

That’s pretty much it for her Fuha charge. Tell me what you guys think…


#9

The v trigger versions of her fuhas aren’t different except the fireball so I don’t really understand what’s different except that she just doesn’t have to charge them


#10

Changes that would make her good
Normals:

  • a RELIABLE medium to medium confirm
  • Low forward needs range increase and block stun increase because cr mk into fireball can be jumped out of
  • Extend the first hit on st mk so counter hits don’t push opponent out of range
  • Cr hp give it the sf4 hitbox/hurtbox and take away crush counter so it’s not op maybe some faster startup
  • St hk to have faster startup or less recovery
  • One change I know will never happen but adding the far st mp from sf4 would be great
    Specials:
    -fuha charges need more pushback,less recovery, and hurtbox should not extend because jump ins from far way will catch you charging and whiff punishing is too easy making charging scary for juri which sort of defeats the purpose of her character.
  • she should have ex versions like sf4 of fuhas
    ex fireball for light fuha
    Ex Overhead for the medium fuha
    And the current ex fuha for the hk fuha
    -fireball needs to be +1 I mean why is guiles +2 and juri has to charge it to be negative makes no sense
    -v trigger chains to overhead would be nice and comboing to lights from overhead would be cool.
    -i personally would like a time based meter for fse instead of it draining and just not be able to stun during that time which is how it was in sf4.

#11

Sorry, i didnt go into detail.

-** LK Fuha**
— Pretty much will function the same as it does now except with a slightly longer range. I would like it to be as good as it was in SFIV.

-(LK Fuha Charged)
— This would be the same as the V-Trigger version it is now.

-(LK Fuha V.T.)
—This will be the same except it would have the plus of having the extended range of the regular LK Fuha

-(MK Fuha)
—This would now hit as an overhead but you cannot “rekka” into another Fuha

-(MK Fuha Charged and V.T.)
—It would function the same it does now. You can “rekka” out of it but you lose the overhead property to balance it out.

-(MK Fuha V.T.)
— It would function the same it does now. You can “rekka” out of it but you lose the overhead property to balance it out.

  • (HK Fuha)
    — It would function the same it does now.

-(HK Fuha Charged and V.T.)
—Increase the opponent juggle state to make it higher.


#12

#13

In my opinion in order to make Juri on par with the top 10 character they should add her most of this properties if not all of them.

NORMALS
(St.mk)
-Slightly forward movement just like she had in SF4
(Cr.mk)
-Needs range and block stun increase
(F.mk)
-Make her overhead +3 on hit
(St.HK)
-Faster start up
-Make it + on block at distance (she doesnt get much damage of it on hit anyway)
(Cr.hp)
-Should be as her vtrigger version always and probably remove the CC properties
(St.hp)
-This button should be her CC its the only one usefull for shimmies
-Make it +2 block

SPECIALS
(Fuharenkyaku store)
-Longer range
-more push back
-More juggles (maybe with jab in the corner and st.mk mid screen)
(Lk Fuharenkyaku)
-Make it +2 on block
(Hk Fuharenkyaku)
-Make it juggle with lp. tensenrin mid screen
-Make it juggle with hp.tensenrin in the corner
(EX Ryodansatsu)
-Make it overhead


#14

Might be overkill, but I do feel like I like most of these. I feel the aim should not be to make massive sweeping changes, but give some things to her moves that make them feel fun to use in creative ways and allow her to play a stronger footsie/oki game.

OP’s suggestions feel poorly thought out to me. A bit of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Her gimmick is the charge, to make the charge disappear is the shatter the character design in this game.

MAIN DESIGN FOCUS
They need to make the charging a fun part of her design and not feel like it is gimping her pressure. Right now the store is more of the problem than the releases.

Her main change that I think she desperately needs, much like Garu suggests, is that she needs to have the push back increased on block for her stores. I would argue to increase how negative she is on block with them to -3 or 4, but have her push back to a safe distance so she cannot be punished (ala long normals like Birdie). Thus, choosing to end a string in a Store, will still put a stop to her pressure, but now you will be at a good range to release the lk fireball and apply pressure and not -2 and in range of your opponent to 50/50 you.

MK Fuha being overhead is fine by be, makes the move interesting and potentially devastating. Thus deserving the charge. But I think it is still good enough as is.

HK Fuha is fine as is for me. its a great tool in a lot of situations and its ability to start her VTrigger combos already make it worth the charge.

Normals
Most of her normals are fine to me, except for 4 that could do with a few changes.

I like the idea of MP moving her forward a bit.

I think RH should hop lows more consistently. Or start up faster, or go further. Probably not all three though. At least one of those would make me happy.

Make cr. HP useful as a crush counter. Its startup is terrible, its range is terrible, its a sub par AA in most scenarios. I think her normal HP needs to not have CC properties to make her combos consistent, but right now she has terrible options for frame traps into CC combos and that’s not so fun.

Make her overhead, at least +1 on hit. Its a trash Overhead, and I am glad she has it, but it needs a little more usefulness.
I also think this move needs to be able to be cancelled into and out of in VTrigger. That alone would make her Vtrigger amazing to me.

Other Stuff
Her VSkill is amazing to me, and should not be changed from where it is. It is so strong and so underutilized.

There is a reason her flip kicks don’t hit in the air. It looks stupid that they do not, but she just becomes a better Nash at that point. She already has lots of ways in, and this move is clearly designed to be anti-fireball and not a moonsault. Plus, having it hit in the air could potentially mess up consistency in combos by making them air tech out and leave you to be punished. Having it only hit as a ground pound like it does now makes your use of it deliberate, and consistent. Making it overhead, or the EX overhead, might be fun though.


#15

@brainpipe
What are you not agree with or just you disagree with everything? I dont think any of my suggestion would make her overpowered in any case her overhead being +3 would be the biggest one.

About your points
-St.mp cant have forward movement since it would loop into it self since it is 5f start up and +5 on hit and we already have st.mk
-With RH probably you mean st.hk and that button is trash it needs everything faster start up, more forwad movement, hop lows and more push back on block, it already puch back a lot on hit anyway.
-The only use for cr.HP nowadays is for punishing dps or reversals with a lot of frame disadvantage.
-Her overhead being +1 its ok only if it is 0 on block since risk reward just doesnt make it, otherwise +3 on hit and -6 on block is fine.
-Her vskill is too risky that is why is so underutilized, if it is charged it should be way more safe -2 or 0 on block.
-Ryudansatsu only use is against some fireballs, it should be more usefull in my opinion at least the ex version should be overhead.


#16

I was disagreeing with the OP. I liked most of your suggestions.

The big I do not agree this is my reaction to OP’s poll. Didn’t realize it would throw that at the top of all my comments.


#17

Also, her vskill is very low risk, it is fantastic. It was fantastic in S1, and its even better now. It is a full screen whiff punish on reaction. Very little risk involved.


#18

Oh! I got it sorry and yeah same here I do not agree at all with his poll to the point that I didnt even care about voting

And about Juri’s Vskill, if it hits it deals 80 damage and 100 if it is lv2 but if it is blocked you get punished really easy since lv1 its -10 and lv2 is -18 so the rewards is really low and the risk is high unless you are on point with her vskill wiff punishing or reads you’ll better not even try it. I my self consider Im really good with her vskill but 1 block is enough to get half of your life.


#19

I simply maintain that people are using it poorly. It charges quite fast now, and in a good number of match ups, some characters cannot punish you at all for charging it. It is super negative on block sure, but you use it as a punish on reaction, and don’t throw it out without seeing the right time to use it. On hit, you have time to recharge it.

Plus, having it up lets you punish people’s habits extremely easily while gaining Vgauge. You throw a fireball, they jump back, you get a free punish with vskill. People like to neutral jump, hit them with a Vskill. It also works amazing in some match ups that other characters struggle with. Having it charged totally fucks with Sim, for example. You can punish most limbs on reaction, as well as any fireball. You can also counterpoke with certain normals and buffer into vskill release.

I think it very punishable is totally balanced given that no one else has a move that can punish people for whiffing things at full screen.


#20

If you’re good at fighting games your charged v skill shouldnt be getting blocked