Footsies with Gouken - Shall we dance?

gouken

#1

Why don’t we ever talk about this aspect of Goukens game?? I think it’s critical to being a strong Gouken player, and one can not win on a high level with zoning and vortex alone.

Let’s discuss…


#2

I actually try this my favorite normals are his cr.lk and cr.MP I find that they work the best for me.


#3

st. hk is good too, it has a few applications (some character specfic and some general) but it works well against opp. who like to walk up and Focus Absorb fireballs up close. If you land it a few times, it forces jump ins and that sets up your cr. FP.

st. mk does well too and can be AA from the right distance. If you mis-time your meaty DF and it hit’s outside your combo range and they block, you can still follow up with st. HP and the “far” version will come out to push them further back to reset the spacing, or you may just hit them. :slight_smile:

I need to work cr. mp in my game a bit more, so I will prob. need the most pointers here. It’s been useful against Guile when he does his cr. hk if you don’t have enough time to Kongo, I uses it:(occasionaly in block strings but I haven’t put the effort in trying to find a standard use for it… I know I’m short changing myself by doing so too :frowning:


#4

i need to work cr.mp into my game also. I dont think i EVER use it and i know it would be beneficial to try.


#5

Yea I like his his cr.MP its pretty quick and can throw people off if they don’t expect it. His HK is kinda slow and I usually end up getting punished so I try to avoid it. my one beef with his cr.lk is that if the opponent throws out a far reaching standing poke you eat the sonuvagun


#6

All you seem to be talking about is pokes. This isn’t a footsie discussion thus far.


#7

Well Discuss… I would think the footsie and poke game would go hand-in-hand.


#8

It does, but there’s shit loads more to it.

I don’t particularly think Gouken’s are as decent as people think. You usually need decent movement, both defensive and offensive, for decent footsies. Although, if your pokes are shit then the movement counts for nothing. He’s got great forward movement which allows him to get those surprise throws and sweeps that a lot of you talk about utilising, but I don’t think his backwards movement helps him much. His low strong is his best poke for spacing and gauging an opponent’s tendencies. If you use it in conjunction with fireball cancels and his sweep, you can keep control of the space pretty effectively.

Example, you land low strong from max range and the opponent blocks it. His sweep has more range so you can utilise the slight range increase to step forward and step back to bait a response. Opponent whiffs because you stepped back, you can sweep. Opponent does nothing, you can step back in range for more low strong into fireball pressure, or use a poke like standing roundhouse which can avoid certain quick startup normals because his hitbox is off the floor.

That’s a basic one, but one that can be added to with throws, using fireballs to get frame advantage and baiting jump in attempts. The range here is such that any and all of Gouken’s AAs will be useful and pretty dominant.

His backdash is both a hindrance and a help, depending on the situation. It doesn’t travel very far, so can usually be caught by almost anything once the invulnerability wears off. The good thing though is that it means he’s usually in range for his normals like low strong and sweep. V-Ryu’s recent videos show how this is utilised.


#9

Goukens Pokes are shitty only when someone is right on top of him, but if they aren’t then it’s a different ball game b/c his zoning game compliments his footsies so well.

Walking or dashing into/away and using st. HK, st. MK. or cr. lk works pretty well too. Even after a blocked FB upclose a good follow up is st. hk or mk if you think they will jump. I tend to look at characters with similar moves to Gouken and how they apply them to get a few ideas to apply them such as Bison’s st. hk vs. Goukens st. mk. Granted it’s not Bison’s but the application of the move is very similar in respect of playing keep away and hitting them before they jump.

I always make sure that I’m moving to stay in range for certain moves… for example on jump ins if it think cr. FP will hit in the wrong area, I walk back a bit and then cr. FP. Moving Back and forth alot will also grant you opportunities to deal damage b/c you opponent is being risky and may whiff, good Fei Long’s do a great job at this.

EXample: Walk up FB up close, st. hk/mk, dash away (if they jump cr. FP/Kongo, if they don’t jump FB to lp palm frame trap or DF), rinse and repeat set ups. I just try to be as random as possible while mixing in FB pressure. If they are blocking alot and lose patience then you get what you want… they either throw alot of FB’s to zone (DF, Palm set ups > mix ups), They jump in (Kongo, Cr. FP, walk under and throw > mix ups or Ultra if you have it), or they get risky and try damn near anything (mostly the high risk moves that aren’t safe on block and that usually leads to cr. FP > EX Palm damage, throws, and Ultras).


#10

I’m not saying Gouken has shitty pokes. He’s got good pokes, but bad movement.


#11

gouken’s walk speed isnt slow and his forward dash is excellent.
he threatens demon flip from anywhere on the screen and can use his palm to travel through fireballs.
i think gouken has excellent mobility for sf4.


#12

No, he hasn’t got good movement. He’s got long range, slow, unsafe movement that relinquishes control of your character to the game. He has a fast forward dash. He has a poor backdash. He has a massive hitbox, which makes his overall movement and evasion poor.

Edit: Actually fuck it, save yourselves a lot of bother and just read sonichurricane’s write-up of footsies so that we are all at least singing from the same hymn sheet.


#13

omg opinion clash RAAARRR

i guess you mean demon flip there.
demon flip affects the entire screen at the same launch to landing speed, lk version to ex version, so ex version actually travels very quickly horizontally.
the only time it is unsafe is if your opponent is expecting it and you are not expecting them to expect it, as with all things.

yay!

boo!
yeah, that sucks.

i dont agree with that.
his hitbox mainly affects crossups and combos, unless you are suggesting that his normals have hitboxes that compromise his effective range.

that sounds a lot like you putting your fingers in your ears and yelling "stop disagreeing with me im riiiiiiight if you guys werent so stuuuuuupid arrrrrrgh!"
that is a great footsie write up though, despite your impertinence!


#14

If it came out that way it wasn’t meant to. There’s a general lack of understanding that needs to be ironed out though. I’m using Gouken as my alt because I think there is untapped potential that isn’t being discovered, mainly due to players not putting in the time or not having the carry over knowledge from previous games to apply it to a new system/character. He has things that can be built on, but some common sense and thought is needed. Otherwise, we’re going to keep having what we’ve had over the last 6 months with people just blurting out random snippets about move properties and pokes which we all know about and doesn’t get anyone anywhere.

About the hitbox, if say a character with a smaller hitbox but the same dash properties as Gouken backdashed on wakeup, would they not be further away from the opponent? Given that the movement of the character is based on their centre of balance?


#15

well, the front of your hitbox is the only movement you are concerned with in that situation.
unless your opponent is standing inside your hitbox somehow, the movement would be the same between a large hitbox and a small hitbox given the same dash.


#16

Now lets all hymn together… v (it starts mid page)

http://sonichurricane.com/?paged=9


#17

I kind of understand what neville is talking about. I’m an old-school SF2 player that got started on SF4 late, so I can relate to how footsies are more intricate than they seem at first. I do think it’s worth talking about which pokes are good. But at the same time, that really is only part of the picture. I also agree that his movement speed is bad, his back dash is bad, but his forward dash is good. I mean, just watch some shoto pace back and forth in front of you and see if you feel like your mobility is equal. Cause it’s not.

Anyway, for starters i’ve gotta say that I’ve found literally every single poke Gouken has useful. Some of them are very situational and distance dependent, but they’re all good for something. Sure cr.MP, cr.LK, cr.HP, and cr.HK are all good pokes. But st.MK, st.LK, far st.MP/HP/HK are also very useful in certain situations. For example, st.MK is EXCELLENT at countering Akuma’s st.HK, but only if you space and time it right. That one’s a particular bitch because you have to anticipate the move, and even if you’re off by just a few frames you’ll get clocked. But if you can do it consistently enough it will slow him way down on spamming st.HK against you. Also, st.LK is an great poke to throw out at random just inside of sweep range. It’s super fast and most people don’t expect it. It will catch many people in their startup motion of fireball or SRK. By throwing out a few of these at random well-placed times, you’ll slow them down. The basic idea is to get them to second guess their normal spam so you can do shit like dash in throw, step forward overhead, demon flip, etc.

I’ll try to think about more situations, but hopefully some of that is useful info :wink:


#18

Yeah I’ve been working footsie game a lot lately, I use a lot of mp - hado or lk - hado, kind of like the shotos mk - hado, or mp - kongo even if its slow and throwable… lk’s very underused by Gouken players, actually I never met Gouken players using it right, or the way I do at least : )


#19

Backdash doesn’t go that far, ok. According to the frame data for the most part every one is invincible in frame 1-8 (http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Street_Fighter_IV#Dashing). Since the 1-8 frame invincibility is pretty much the standard that means ANYBODY can be hit back dashing away, after the first 8 frames, whether they are grounded or airborne b/c they can be hit. Block Stun etc. pays a big part of this and since Gouken’s block stun pretty much sucks ass, having the proper spacing is that more important b/c it ensures that you can dash out for a clean get away as long as you know the range of your opponents attacks. That leads me to this…

Even though Goukens movement isn’t the greatest, he has something that no one else has, KONGO and if spaced correctly back dash can lead you to an easy kongo set up while playing footsies. I’m not sure if it’s a new discovery, but I’ve been fooled with this alot in training mode and got some good results. I set the training mode dummy to walk up and attack and I entered their mid-far range and back dashed out > kongo. You get the opportunity to take advantage of the invincibility frames provided that you have the correct spacing and the kongo is 1 frame so as soon as Gouken lands he can Kongo the oncoming attack.

I’ve messed with it a few ways and I’m still tweaking a few things with pulling it off but…

DF or normal dive kick into sweep range > Backdash Kongo
Dash in to sweep range > Backdash Kongo
Jump into sweep range > Backdash Kongo
FA > Backdash > Kongo
FA > Backdash > FA > Ultra
Backdash > Backdash > Kongo
Backdash > Backdash > Ultra for the oncoming risky attack or AA
Backdash > EX DF
Backdash > EX Tatsu
etc. etc. … all on you depening what your opponent does.

And because you are pushing yourself away from your opponent, you don’t have to worry about getting thrown if you whiff your kongo. I guess there is the possibility of kara-kongoing from low to high > high to low as well. The most important part is ensuring Gouken has enough spacing when trying this to make sure he doesn’t get hit while he recovers.

I know kongo can be unsafe like many things but it’s something to think about.


#20

Look at IAM go…

Sorry for being sentimental but i think this is what most today still dont see