Frame data and hit stun question

#1

(I came to this thread after trying to find out how easy it was to retaliate against Sakura close s.HP xx HP fireball or Ken d.HK xx LP roll.)

What’s the first possible frame in a normal move when you’re able to cancel into a special? Is it active hit frame one? I don’t think so. See my Sakura example below…

Sakura:

close s.HP
1100, 900 -11/-11
3/8/27
23 block/hit stun

the math (assuming normal is canceled on hit frame one): 27 recovery + (8 - 1) canceled hit frames = 34 —> 34 + -11 = 23

close s.HK
1200, 1100 -6/-6
4/7/23
23 block/hit stun

Doing either ‘close s.HK xx qcf+HP’ or ‘close s.HP xx qcf+HP’ makes no difference. In both cases the opponent will be unable to move for 23 frames before the fireball hits. Now the HP fireball doesn’t until frame 22. Assuming you cancel the normal on hit frame one, theoretically, this combo should work! 23 is a larger number than 22 obviously. However, this combo does not work…

The conclusion I’m leaning towards is that normal moves cannot be canceled on the first hit frame.

It is possible to use a reversal roll to escape Sakura ‘close s.HP xx qcf+HP’ (and remember rolls have no vulnerable startup frames too). Based on background information like that, I want to say normals aren’t cancelable until frame two. Can anybody back me up?

This combo does works easily on a counter hit. Heavy attacks get an additional +4 on counter hits. In the close s.HP example, -11 would become -7 on the counter hit. 34 + -7 = 27. 27 - 22 = 5. On a counter hit s.HP xx HP fireball, there is a -5 window for the opponent to escape. In other words, escape is not possible. The combo works. (Again, the -5 number I got is assuming the s.HP was canceled on hit frame one…)

Ken:

d.HP
1100, 700 -13/-13
3/11/26
23 block/hit stun

d.HK
1300 down/-15
6/6/35
25 block stun

Ken’s ‘d.HK xx qcb+LP’ is better than his ‘d.HP xx qcb+LP’. If you look at the numbers (and assuming first hit frame cancel), d.HK stuns for 2 frames longer than the d.HP does. Ken’s qcb+LP lasts for 35 frames total. If Ken theoretically stuns the opponent for 25 frames after a canceled d.HK, he should be at -10 (25 - 35 = -10) after ‘d.HK xx qcb+LP’

d.MK
900 -1/-1
4/6/17
21 block/hit stun

Look at the data for Ken’s medium attack. Canceling qcb+LP from one of the heavy attacks is obviously better than canceling from a medium right?

Iori:
close s.HP
1200, 1100 0/0
3/6/24
29 block/hit stun (!?)

Rock:
close s.HK
1200 -2/-2
4/8/20
25 block/hit stun

close s.HP
1100 -10/-10
4/3/31
23 block/hit stun

Again, see the difference with the math? s.HK makes the opponent unable to move longer than s.HP does. Thus ‘close c.HK xx rage run shift’ > ‘close s.HP xx rage run shift’.

Vega (claw):
d.HK
1000 down/-14
8/9/29
23 block stun

Now note this move is NOT cancelable in anyway. But if you apply the math as if it were…

(29 + 8 = 37 —> 37 + -14 = 23)

You come up with a familiar number. Vega d.HK is a 23 stun move.

Certain characters all have certain moves that are better than others for stunning the opponent while that move is canceled into something else. I just need to know exactly what frame a normal move can be canceled into a special so I can get some more conclusive information. Exactly how much of a window I have to escape Sakura ‘close s.HP xx qcf+HP’ in particular. Anybody?

edit: tried to make post less confusing

#2

i see what u mean. U can whiff a normal then quickly cancel it into a super or special which i’m guessing happens within the very first few frames, or even the very first frame itself. It seems like when the move hits u lose that ability, but that’s just my guess. I’ll go experiment with it later on

#3

No, you’re talking about kara canceling. People already know the frame data for that. It’s the first 3 startup frames within any normal or LP+LK roll. I’m talking about something else.

Sorry about the confusion. I really meant the first active hit frames of a special cancelable normal move instead.

#4

I drew out all the frames with some numbers (just so i didnt have to worry about the math).

After drawing out the frames, if you cancel the fierce on the first hitting frame (and the fireball starts coming out on the frame following that) it would appear the fireball should connect. I didnt find any solution to the problem, because im now even more confused than before.

From my drawing, the fireball should connect a frame before they recover.

I assumed that there is 38 frames in the entire s.fierce animation, unless I totally dont understand the frame data.

Anyway, I attached the text file i made. Someone tell me if I assumed something wrong.

EDIT: Frome my representation it would appear you can only cancel on the 3rd frame at least (so that the move comes out on the 4th frame or later). Oh yea… make sure you dont have line wrapping…

#5

I just read the frame book a couple of days ago, I was under the impression that the -11 is a frame disadvantage.

Isn’t the positive numbers that give you the advantage?

#6

[quote]
*Originally posted by kcxj *
**Sakclose s.HP
1100, 900 -11/-11
3/8/27
23 block/hit stun

the math (assuming normal is canceled on hit frame one): 27 recovery + (8 - 1) canceled hit frames = 34 —> 34 + -11 = 23

Where did you get this formula from?

**

What’s the startup on HP FB? 21?

**

well, maybe it have to be active for a frame to HIT first, and then you cancel?

also, I thought I think I read somewhere that to reversal you execute special on 1st or 2nd frames after you recover. So if you can only reversal out of HP->HP FB that kinda narrows it down the window a bit.

(i don’t see the point of 2nd frame reversals… like “fake” reversals or something since meaties should beat them out)

Haha, lot’sa questions and little to no help. Sorry man.

#7

I’ve been wondering about this for a while actually. The conclusion I came to is that there is no static frame leeway in which you can cancel a move; it varies from move to move. What I’m 99% sure of though, is that similar to how blockstun doesn’t start until AFTER you hit the opponent, a move cannot be cancelled until AFTER it hits. If you were able to cancel a move on the first frame of a hit, the human eye most likely wouldn’t be able to pick up the hit. Kinda like how you can never see what Zangief is doing in that one frame before he SPDs you (unless you accidentally kara cancelled something).

Here’s another example:

Maki’s low short is 3/4/9 +4. Do the math and that’s 16 frames of guard stun. Maki’s crazy punch executes in 14 frames. That’s an even bigger leeway gap than Sakura’s fierce into fierce fireball, yet it still doesn’t combo without counter hit. For this to be true the low short shouldn’t be cancellable until the third hitting frame.

So basically, I don’t think any move can be cancelled on the first active hitting frame. Maybe not even the 2nd.

#8

Both Blanka d.MP and Iori s.MK only have three active hit frames total, and are both cancelable into super. If there’s any kind of set rule where you’re not allowed to cancel a normal until at least it’s third active hit frame, then that would theoretically make super canceling these two normals inordinately difficult. There would only one frame windows right?

A better example I just thought of is Sagat s.MP. This move also only has three active hit frames, but is also special cancelable in addition to being super cancelable. Does anybody here feel canceling Sagat s.MP feels like something with only a one frame window? Does it feel reversal or shoto d.LP, d.HK link hard?

#9

I believe there’s a point at which a move is cancellable. I’ll make up a move.

st HP

startup 3 frames - frames 1-3
hitting 6 feames - frames 4-9
recovery 10 frames frames 10-19

cancel frames 6-8.

So, for this move, the latest you could cancel is frame 8. The earliest you could cancel is frame 6.

However, if you input the cancel any time from frames 1-5, it’ll store the cancel and then execute the cancel at frame 6.

This is my crazy logic.

Also, you can’t cancel on all hit frames, I think. Try cancelling on the last hitting frames of Kyo’s cr MP or sagat’s HP. Not sure about this, but that is how it works in KOF.

#10

Um… ok, the hit frames is possible hit frames right? so its not like all of these frames hit, only one of them hits… so, the possible hit frames do not define a window that you can cancel from? As you are cancelling once the hit frame is detected… ie, perhaps the cancellable window does extend into the recovery frames in certain cases…