Frame traps against different characters

akuma

#1

Hi Guys,

The one thing I’ve found playing SF over the past few months is that now that im getting more into the frame trap/counter hit setup side of my play I still have trouble with cr tech mashers or cr.lp mashers. Specific examples include vsing Bisons, Chuns etc. I’ll jump in start doing a block string attempt to do a staggered cr.mp or cr.lp and i’ll get blown up by online bisons who just spam cr.lk… even when i try different timings for frame traps I still get blown up.

My general habit is to jump in with normal, If they block, chuck out a delayed cr.mp or delayed cr.lp, or maybe a few cr.lps step forward and do another delayed c.mp. Alot of the time I will try these setups and the opposition just end up counter hitting me anyway.

Does anybody have any tips as an Akuma player to what is effective during block strings? I swear it feels the timing is slightly different for every character you vs or depending on how much your opponent mashes.


#2

If you’re getting lights mashed through your frame traps, just tighten your blockstrings.

For example insead of doing c.lp c.lp walk up c.mp just leave the “walk up” part out and if they’re truly mashing hard you’ll counter hit them. Or you can do c.lp > s.hp xx hado which is a decent frame trap and if you connect you can FADC the hado and go into a full combo.
Another good thing to do vs mashers is blocked c.lp very > short pause > hp dp…only do this if you have 2 bars to FADC or if you’re really sure they are desperate mashers.

also doing c.lp > pause > ex tatsu is good if you know they’re actually mashing crouch tech and not jabs (bison and chun for example since they have 3f cr.short)


#3

You can also do cr. LP, cr. LP xx LP DF Grab. It’s kinda risky and you really have to cancel into the DF from the cr. LPs or you’ll get stuffed by the quick normals they mash out… But it can make your opponent think twice about tech mashing. JR likes to use this technique A LOT, but then again, JR is JR.

Use with caution! :wink:


#4

I think almost everyone has a normal to stuff that shit (shoto’s and rog have c.hp for example), but then again, most people don’t know it so it sadly works a lot of times


#5

I think it’s more a question of people always looking for the throw or they’re too busy mashing LP or LK to be able to notice. Done at the right time though, it can lead to a nice opportunity to go on the offensive. It is however, as I said, a VERY risky move…

But that’s neither here or there as this thread is about frame traps.


#6

Stole this description from a google search.

There is a common misconception that frame traps leave you at frame advantage and then doing another move that has a startup less than that frame advantage. This is a link, and if the frame advantage is still greater than the startup when the opponent is blocking, then that is a block string.

A frame trap is a sequence of moves where the first move’s frame advantage (or disadvantage) plus the startup frames (not counting the first active frame) for the follow-up move creates a window (the frame trap) where the opponent, even if they perform a move to react, will be stuffed (or even counterhit) because the active frames of their move will not come out before the active frames of the second move of the frame trap.

Of course, this means that frame traps are opponent-dependent; not all frame traps will work on all characters, and there are certain situations where you might not have any frame traps because an opponent has a certain move which will always allow them to escape the frame trap.

Let’s start with trying to find out what some of the possible frame traps for a character are, using Juri as an example.

Looking at Juri’s moves, you want to find the the pairs of moves which meet the following criteria:
[LIST]
[]The first and the second moves are normals, not throws/Specials/Supers/Ultras, as that will move the opponent too far away for the second move to create the frame trap.
[
]The difference of the startup for the second move (not including the first active frame) and the frame advantage (or disadvantage) of the first move must be a non-negative number (i.e. greater-than or equal to zero).
[/LIST]
Now, for any character, there are a number of pairs of moves that satisfy this criteria. However, you want to find the ones where that difference is as small as possible. For Juri, we will list the two of her moves with one of the smaller differences, two frames:
First Move Frame Advantage on Block Second Move Startup
Close Light Punch 3 Far Medium Punch 6

And the frame trap window is calculated as follows:
Part of Calculation Value Running Total
Startup frames of second move 6 6
Minus first active frame of second move 1 5
Minus frame advantage on hit of first move 3 2
Window of frame trap 2

Now by all accounts, that’s a pretty good frame trap. It allows for a window where the opponent can perform a move (the first startup frame of Juri’s second move) but given that Juri will have an active frame executing at that time, it is more than likely that most moves an opponent throws out will not have an active frame that Juri can be hit with.
Let’s assume the opponent is Zangief. In this case, none of his normals have a startup which can get active frames in play within two frames. If he tries to do any of them, Juri’s Far Medium punch will hit him while he is in the active frames.
Note that this is only for normals, Zangief can technically escape with a Super, Ultra, or trade with the 3xP Lariat.
However, even if a move has enough startup moves to be caught in a frame trap, there is a possibility that the move will still escape it, given other properties of the move.

A perfect example is Ryu’s MP Shoryuken. Even though it has three startup frames, the first four frames are invulnerable, which means that even though the active frames start too late to be caught in the frame trap, the invulnerability aspect of the move means that Juri is the one who will get punished if Ryu decides to reverse with this move.
In the end, you have to know your frame traps based on your character and your opponent’s moves.
[SIZE=6]So knock yourselves out, and i’ll do the same and post the results here. [/SIZE]



#7

After messing about with the above I broke down the possible frame trap starters (according to frame advantage on block) and their follow-ups (according to speed) and came up with the theoretical list of frame traps/ true strings. Although due to the nature of the normals system all those listed may not be necessarily possible.

STRING STARTERS

Far. Lp - +4

Cl. Lp - +3

Cl. Lk - +2
Cl. Lp - +2
Cr.Mp - +2

Far. Lk - +1

FOLLOW-UPS

Broken down in to four distinct groups:

VERY FAST: (3 frame start-up) cl.mp/far.lp/cr.lp

FAST: (4 frame start-up) cl.lp/cl.hp/far.mp/cr.mp/cr.lk

SLOW: (5 frame start-up) cl.lk/cl.mk/cr.mk

VERY SLOW: (6 frame start up) cl.hk/far.hp/cr.hp/cr.hk

-f.mk & f.hk left off due to prolonged start-up.

RESULTS

Far. Lp - VERY FAST (+2), FAST (+1), SLOW(0), VERY SLOW (1).
Cl. Lp - VERY FAST (+1), FAST (0), SLOW(1), VERY SLOW (2).
Cl. Lk - VERY FAST (0), FAST (1), SLOW(2), VERY SLOW (3).
Cl. Lp - VERY FAST (0), FAST (1), SLOW(2), VERY SLOW (3).
Cr.Mp - VERY FAST (0), FAST (1), SLOW(2), VERY SLOW (3).
Far. Lk - VERY FAST (1), FAST (2), SLOW(3), VERY SLOW (4).

The bolded are theoretically true strings and likely can possibly be extended into 3 or 4 hit frame traps or true strings through further experimentation.


#8

I usually just go for the srk now against mashy characters like chun/bison when I make it seem like an obvious throw attempt. It is the easiest punish. I think it works the best. Df is another experiment I have to try.


#9

An old write-up I did that listed all of Akumas frame-traps, sorted from gap size between normals.