From one Ibuki to another, a few Ibuki questions concerning super jump cancel combos

ibuki

#1

Sup guys.

I have been playing SF4 not very long about 7 months now and Ibuki is my character of choice and I have been grinding on this game for a lot of time I am on almost whenever I can be. I had been learning basics and started to think I should start learning the more advanced stuff since I am able to play a solid ground game using fundamentals and Ibukis strong normals and basic combos.

So I spent like 2-3 months learning the Tsumuji Loops, which I have managed to get consistently I can do it about 90% of the time now. I also hard learnt the Super Jump cancel ultra 2.
Now here is where I started to get confused so I had mastered the TC4 SJC Ultra 2 I can do that 100% without fail and I have recently decided to start learning the light move SJC Ultra 2. So I looked up a few things online and noticed that I had been doing the SJC Ultra motion differently to the majority of people I saw demonstrating it.
The way I have been doing it is doing the QCF+Up motion then another QCF and Kicks. So I was wondering if I am making it harder on myself by doing this? I also am not sure if that motion that I am doing is making the light normal SJC Ultra 2 harder.

My second question is, for doing the Cl.HK>SJC>Command dash. I can’t seem to get the timing is there any tips anyone can give me like the correct motions to use like do I have to do double QCF or just up then QCF.

Cheers I look forward to your responses


#2

As far as SJC ultra, as long as it comes out, you’re doing it right. I do QCFQCF+UF, but I’ve noticed other people doing UF on the first one.

For cl.st.HK SJC dash, I just do a slow QCF and try to end with UF as soon as her foot makes contact then press LK. I’ve heard some people do HCF+UF for timing as well.


#3

Please post here next time: Ibuki Q&A Thread: Ask simple questions here!

“light move SJC Ultra 2” is almost always for show, and rarely if ever useful in a real match.

But to answer your :qcf::uf::qcf: (which I will refer to as M1) vs :qcf::qcf::uf: (which I will refer to as M2) question, first you need to understand how SJC U2 works. The full notation of a SJC U2, would be something like
st.MK xx super jump xx U2

That is, the st.MK is cancelled into a super jump, and that super jump is then cancelled into U2. The timing window to cancel st.MK into a super jump is pretty easy, because you can buffer the super jump (similar timing to how one could do st.MK and buffer Tsumuji).

However, the window to cancel the super jump into U2 is a small 3-4 frame window. This is because what you’re actually cancelling is the prejump frames of the super jump, which is about 4f. Once Ibuki is off the ground, you cannot cancel into U2. You also cannot buffer the U2 or do it too early, otherwise you won’t be in the pre superjump frames yet, and instead you’ll get something like st.MK xx EX dp.

Now onto the differences between the two methods of SJC U2:
M1 where you do the :uf: first, has the advantage of executing the super jump earlier. If you’re using a normal like cr.HP which has a lot of hitstop frames to use, then this may be a null advantage. But with a normal with minimal hitstop frames, such as cr.LK, you might notice it can be difficult to even do something like cr.LK xx super jump without being quite fast on the stick.

M2 where you do the :uf: last, has the advantage in timing the 3-4f pre superjump window. Since when using this method, you should be aiming to actually start your superjump around the time you perform the final :qcf::uf:. In doing so, you reduce the guess work, and the U2 input becomes a 3-4f link immediately following your :uf: input. In practice however, the super jump is still buffered a little bit earlier, but the guess work in timing the U2 input is still reduced.

So basically, M1 you super jump cancel the st.MK on the first frame of cancellability, and take a bit of a guess as to when to hit the ultra buttons. You might have trouble with this method if you don’t have a very strong sense of timing.

M2 you super jump cancel st.MK somewhere between the middle to last frame of cancellability, which reduces the guess as to when to hit the ultra buttons. You might have trouble with this method if you are too slow to perform the super jump cancel.

Finally, the brute force and simplest approach to figuring out which of the two SJC U2 methods is better for you is to just try them both and see which one you have better success or consistency with. I would actually recommend this before trying to dissect your execution, as usually your hands will automagically know which one is most comfortable to use.

tl,dr answer to question 1 :qcf::uf::qcf: is probably much easier for you when doing something like cr.LP xx SJC U2, unless you are incredibly fast (Sako-like) on the stick.

Assuming you have read the above, we can now move onto your second question:
cl.st.HK xx super jump xx command dash

I think I should first give a special mention to normals with special properties regarding SJC U2:
Any crouching normal xx SJC U2, as they have one special property that needs to be taken into account. The special property is that using the down input for the crouching normal cannot count for the super jump input as well.
e.g. :d::mp::qcf::uf: does not get you cr.MP xx super jump.

In order to get that super jump cancel, you either have to go to neutral and then perform M1, or just perform M2. Or you can perform M1 with an extra :uf: at the end (i.e. :qcf::uf::qcf::uf:), but this kind of defeats the purpose of M1 and still ends up being M2 anyways.

Second property, normals that are jump cancellable as well as super jump cancellable (e.g. cr.HP, cl.st.HK, and TC10 enders). Note that Ibuki can also do a regular jump cancel, and then cancel that jump into a special or ultra, similar to her super jump.
e.g. cl.st.HK xx jump xx U2

(fun fact: Ibuki can cancel her jump into a FA, but not cancel her super jump into FA. This is opposite to CViper)

In my research, I came to the conclusion that the jump cancel window is about 2f compared to SJC’s window of 3-4f. Another fact is that at the beginning of the cancel window (possibly only the first cancellable frame), jump cancelling takes priority over super jump cancelling.

An easy way to see the cancel timing difference between regular and super jumps, is to do cl.st.HK xx super jump. Too early and you’ll get a regular jump instead.

Combining the the two special properties I mentioned, and we can see that the window to cancel a jump must be smaller than that of a super jump. Consider cr.HP for example. It is a crouching normal, so as long as you do something like
:d::hp::qcf::uf:

you will always get a regular jump cancel, no matter what. But if you do
:d::hp: :n: :qcf::uf:

you have a much higher chance of executing a super jump cancel, since going neutral allows you to perform a super jump cancel, and it also adds a delay for you so that you don’t cancel the cr.HP too early and get a regular jump instead.

Now onto the test, try doing
:d::hp::qcf::uf::lk:

and then try doing
:d::hp: :n: :qcf::uf::lk:

Both are technically correct inputs for cr.HP xx jump/superjump xx LK cd, but depending on your jump, the LK cd will or will not be easy to time correctly.

tl,dr answer to question 2: make sure you’re doing
cl.st.HK xx super jump xx command dash

and not
cl.st.HK xx regular jump xx command dash

PhD research: Ibuki Combos and Glitches


#4

Wow, thanks a lot for the very in depth response. It helped a lot. My understanding is definitely stronger.
So for example if I wanted to do st.LP>st.MK>SJC>U2 and I was doing M1 would I have to perform the motion very fast compared to M2?
I do feel after much experimentation I feel the M1 is easier for me I seem to perform it more consistently.

As for the other one this makes so much more sense now I see. So the timing is tighter because if you time it slightly wrong you will get a normal jump cancel which can’t be canceled into a dash. Damn I seem to be struggling with the timing for the cl.HK>SJC. It’s quite an off timing I am unsure if I am am doing the motion wrong or to slow or to fast. I am trying to do
I am trying the QCF>QCF+UP motion but I just get a Kazegiri.

thanks for the link I will definitely be studying up on this stuff. I have a lot to learn!

Thanks a lot!


#5

I suggest you re-read everything that I posted above yesterday.

To compare how fast you have to do the motion for M1 vs M2, try doing cr.LP xx SJC U2 but without the U2. In other words:
:d::lp::qcf::uf::qcf: (M1)
:d::lp::qcf::qcf::uf: (M2)

See which method is easier to cancel the cr.LP into an empty super jump.

Again, re-read everything that I just posted.

Why are you doing the :qcf::qcf::uf: motion with cl.st.HK? Are you trying to do cl.st.HK xx SJC U2?

The first step in learning cl.st.HK xx SJC, again, is to start with learning the jump cancel vs super jump cancel timing. Keep doing cl.st.HK xx empty super jump until you can get that every time before moving onto something like cl.st.HK xx super jump xx command dash.

In terms of figuring out if you’re too fast or too slow (again, I explained it above) is that if you get cl.st.HK xx jump, you inputted your directions too fast.


#6

yo mingo you seem very well educated on ibuki I would like to play you and also ask a few question (if you have a mic) when we play to figure a few things out. I would say im pretty good with her but there are a few things I need some help with, you going to be online today? lmk thanks.


#7

i know im late to the party on this thread, I just wanted to add a comment in addition to what Mingo posted for

Cl.HK>SJC>Command dash

In my own experience on how i was able to this down was to completely let go of the stick after the Cl.HK to return to neutral until i see the kick come out. After returning to neutral, I input the sjc. For me, and ymmv, letting go of the stick to return to neutral gives me the exact correct timing for the sjc.


#8

I thought everyone did cl.st.HK while neutral. Unless you’re holding back and pressing HK, holding any other direction will output a different move.


#9

yea but for me when i returned the stick to neutral with hand on stick, i might have been going into another motion too fast so i always got something else other than what i wanted, e.g. a command dash. i dont know what it was maybe i was derping the stick around or whatever, so i trained myself to let go of the stick, which i think gives the game the time it needs to register as a neutral input.


#10

“Returned” from what?


#11

bad habit of mine is holding back during combo in case i drop it.


#12

Not sure why I didn’t realize this before, but in order to do
cl.st.HK xx super jump xx command dash

properly, you have to do the cl.st.HK neutral. If you hold back while doing cl.st.HK and then go 225º (i.e. 412369 or :b::db::qcf::uf:) then you will not get a super jump, but instead a regular jump.

This is the same reason how CViper does her jump cancel burn kicks (not super jump burn kicks).** In order to do a super jump, you have to start at neutral.**


#13

Why wasn’t this mentioned? The best combo is xx HK Kazegiri xx MP Super – no matter how long or short the combo is, the HK Kazegiri always increases the damage and you even get to vortex after it.

I can’t really think of a single situation where cl.st.HK (jump) Super is worth doing…


#14

Does Kazegiri xx Super do more damage than cl.st.HK xx Super?

If so, what is the difference in damage?


#15

It’s quite substantial, I have the numbers in the book. Too lazy to open it up now or try and find our previous posts. Actually Mingo, you looked into this before haha. I suppose you must have forgot because it’s a bit character specific on which strength to use.

Honda, Dhalsim…

The important thing is that you can hit-confirm from something safe into HK Kazegiri xx Super and still do more damage.

cl.st.HK into Super is only really safe after a stun or crumple… I suppose it does have one big use, and that’s to either super from an anti-air, or after someone makes themselves juggle from the vortex.


#16

Also… why are we even bringing up cl.st.HK xx Super? That is not the topic of this thread.


#17

Because clearly I can’t read properly and dishonestly skimmed the OP rather arrogantly. =(


#18

Izuna, in some conditions, using HP or LP super after HK Kazegiri deals more damage (mostly due to hitboxes sometimes letting kunais whiff for nothing)
Try for example against Ibuki: TC4 - HK Kazegiri - HP super will hit all of the kunais, while MP super will have one or two kunais whiffing


#19

It’s a little character specific and spacing specific. In general if you record j.HP, st.MK HK Kazegiri xx MP Super it works on most of the casts apart from those who have strange launch mechanics like Dhalsim or Honda…

j.HP, st.MK xx HK Kazegiri xx MP Super is actually the most damaging combo with Super (and no Ultra) – not including stun… I think that’s what I found out before.

I have to work today as well (duh!) but from next week I will be just part time to get ready for Uni, so I may be able to play a bit =)


#20

More damaging than j.HP , cr.HP xx SJC HK Kazegiri xx Super?
And j.HP , cl.st.MP , cl.st.HK xx jump xx Super?