Future 2d fighting systems question


#1

Seems to me that since SF2, most 2d games improve/evolve their game play based on the holes in the system found and exploited by the fans over the years of competitive play. Combos, super cancels, Kara’s, and then dash cancels, etc, were are found by players and became part of future fighting gameplay systems. With that said and with the renewed momentum of the fighting genera, I want to pose a question.

I think MvC3 in close to being a reality, and if it is, What will be the upgrade of the fighting system, because “animation frame manipulation”(1 frame links, and dash cancels from MvC2) are both found in SF4 (linking normals, FADC) and TvC (linking normals, roman cancels)? So what do you think the developers are going to come up with? I don’t know, but I would like to hear everyone’s/anyone’s thoughts.


#2

in before the shit storm!


#3

first i was like:coffee:, then I was like:bluu:, now im like:coffee:.


#4

motion controls


#5

Legit observation. There were infinites in A3, MvC2 and now in SF4. It seems to me like Capcom respects the rushdown style, but are now also balancing it out with steep execution requirements, which is fine for a Marvel head, bc bread and butter combos are silly by default in the game. I’m thinking of Fuerte here, bc he’s got run-stop but its not a braindead input, as well as all his mixups/resets/okizeme stuff which all boils down to guessing correctly and knowing the mind of your opponent. So you don’t get anything free, but if you are an (educated) risk taking opponent that capitalizes on applying constant pressure/threats of pressure then he’s a natural choice.

MvC3 is possible, Capcom knows it would sell, afaik its a rights/intellectual property issue. That aside, in terms of the natural progression of an engine like that, coupled with what they know works judging from the global mobility (dash, FADC) that they gave to charas in 4, I’d hope that a new versus game would look something like this:

  • Air dash, double jump, or short hops for every character. With a shorthop, a character like BBHood or Wolverine would actually rip a little heiny at Marvel. I’m talking like really short hops, like KOF style pretty much if not shallower. A dash momentum hop would be just as good as a tri-jump in terms of landing a hit in a pressure string.

  • More moves with armor properties. Or a global FA-style armor counter-move. Someone is rushing you down, you can halt a rush with the threat of a well-timed counter with armor properties. Basically, assists shouldn’t be the only option to halting most rushdown.

  • More crouch-cancel and dash links. These made Vampire Savior and the earlier CPS-2 Marvel games a lot of fun and very inventive. In fact the more cancels the better. Anything that allows you to followup something that would normally be punishable would be in the flavor of the game imo. It could be in the game, but difficult enough that it’s still a longshot. For example, a program pad Magneto would be unbeatable, but there aren’t any players who can play to those execution requirements 10/10 times.


#6

-I like the idea that you get nothing for free. Everything comes down to knowing/guess your opponents mind and out thinking him without the advantage of more powerful/trickyer/better moves.

  • Flashy combos are great and should take great skill to pull off, but it has to be balanced for the players that can’t pull of the deeper mechanics of the combos system.

-sorry I said anything about MvC3 now that I look back at this thread, but ea no longer has the rights and capcom is fishing for them so I couldn’t help myself last night at 3 in the morning, but I bet if it happens we would hear about it as early as April.


#7

Disney owns the rights to Marvel, good luck on a MVC 3 guys, seriously.


#8

Even before SF4 the developers of fighting games for the arcades realized that FG are becoming a niche because they were too hard to play even on the basic level.
360s in ST required to be done really really fast, and remember those weird inputs for super moves in old SNK games?
The trend right now is to try stuff that makes the games easier to play, and ditching system features that require doing something that’s technically hard. For example Blazblue inherited most of GG’s gameplay but not FRCs.
While SF3’s main thing was parry which was not easy to do even when you know exactly when something is coming (since there’s plenty of room for error even after you parry the 1st hit of chun’s super for example) SF4 introduces the focus attack, and it’s a feature that’s pretty easy to use.

Also the games make it harder to have 1 sided matches now. Bursts, a free out of jail ticket (as long as they not used in a predictable manner) are a common sight. Games try all sorts of new comeback mechanics. Some turned out ok, some are frowned upon. (examples: Ultras, Rage, Barouqe, super gauge regen in BB, the custom combo thing in KOF12)

As always some gameplay systems are a success and some have big flaws but that’s trial and error. The overall trend though is a great one.


#9

True.

Also, I believe that outside of SF, the 4 button layout is going to be standard, either SNK style or the now more common 3 attack + 1 special (Drive, Assist, etc.) style since, most players are more used to 4 buttons since that’s what most pads have. Also, the 4th special button (Drive, Assist, etc.) in the latter is an interesting feature that I hope gets developed further in future games. I know a few people who were able to jump easily into BlazBlue simly due to the fact that pressing Drive allows them to pull stuff off.


#10

That may somewhat true, but both melty blood and arcana heart started with that 4 button layout of
ABC
X- -
yet they both later went for
ABC
X-Y
So each game is it’s own unique case.


#11

I think the movement to make FGs easier for the public is a great trend, but then you loose the respect of the hardcore. If you satisfy the hardcore you scare away the public and the game doesn’t sell as well. So I guess a balance is needed (and one I think sf4 balances well). But besides new franchises and stories (still praying for a 2d capcom DBZ, that shit would be just bananas on a MvC2 type engine) I just can’t see where fighting mechanics are/should/ will go?

Since the technology is so powerful now. What if they got rid of hit boxes animation frames and went with per-pixel detection and semi real physics? It would mean the same combos don’t work all the time because player and opponent position would almost never be the same, but it could be a way to keep things really fresh every game? You would have to stay open to finding something new every round sort of like real fighting.


#12

why do people believe this? brand equity/marketing is a way bigger factor than minute things that a fraction of the players care about


#13

In Melty’s case, the ‘E’ button is a multipurpose macro. It’s used for throw, dodge, and heat. The extra button provides for an easier play. You can also do the manual inputs.


#14

IIRC it’s kinda the same case with arcana heart 3.
You can choose a 4 button layout with a button for both the special dashes and arcanas, or a 5 button layout with a dash button and an arcana button.
In that case I’ll take the 5 button layout any day since I don’t want overlapping commands.

I disagree. Does the general public have a problem with games that are balanced and polished and whatever the hardcore want them to be? They don’t really care as long as there’s some other stuff in it like anime and boobs and flashy animations which by themselves don’t affect the gameplay for the hardcore.


#15

Mickey vs Capcom :confused:


#16

If you want to see what MVC3 would look at please see TvC.
Most likely you’ll see
1: Pretty much everyone has air dash
2: C-C-C-C-Combo Breaker (for meter)
3: Assists nerfed
4: 3d Graphics with 2d gameplay


#17

All that means is that if Capcom does get the rights, they’ll probably get the rights to re-release DuckTales and Rescue Rangers on the VC.


#18

And Disney likes money

Also, I believe I side with tataki. I’m willing to bet that a good 60+ percent of SF4 players can’t FADC Ultra and 80+ percent of smash players can’t do L wave cancels (?), yet this clearly has had little/no effect on the success of either franchise. It’s my belief that outside of word of mouth scaring people off, the depth involved in a game has little/no baring on casuals as long as they can mash buttons and make cool stuff happen.