Gen beginners Thread ~ So you want to be an Assassin?

gen

#1

So you have an interest in Gen?

http://puu.sh/g2vy

Oh you’re serious?

Let’s start with your most important problem, which is not knowing what to ‘do with Gen’. Most people have this problem and as a result they end up jumping around doing crane j.mk and random Oga’s, but Gen really is a ‘footsie’ character. Gen wants to be at midrange and poke at the opponent and make them do stuff that can be punished. For example: you press s.mp and Akuma does his s.hk (the roundhouse kick) you block it and on block from most distances you can simply mash hp hands and it’ll hit). If you haven’t already read this, atleast a part of it as it will really help you understand what footsies ‘are’ as it’s such a abstract concept:

http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702

This basically means he has great normals, so lets take a look at some of them:

**Mantis c.mp: **fast startup, good range, and probably your ‘to go’ poke in AE. I say this because c.mp can combo into hk hands. There are multipl,e way of doing that but I just press c.mp and then piano hp, mp, hp, hp with my index finger and middle finger. A dangerous poke and a good way to hitconfirm his super (or fadc, get to that later).

**mantis s.mp: **A great poke that can stuff a lot of things, like Yuns divekick, Rufus’ divekick, random pokes in a footsie battle. I throw it out randomly all the time and get counterhits all day because it’s so godlike. Has +5 frame advantage if you hit it on block up close aswell so that’s cool too as you can frametrap people with it (as long as they don’t mash srk). So yeah, also acts as a divekick anti-air.

**mantis s.hk: **Has improved a lot in AE. Comes out pretty fast, does solid damage, good to throw out now and then.

**mantis s.hp: **One of the main anti-airs, like it most of Gens anti-air it may trade with your opponents jump in attack but that’s a problem Gen has and we have to deal with.

**mantis c.hk: **beastly move that has crazy range and knocks down the opponent. I like to use it after I do s.mp in footsies to see if they have pressed a button, this usually wins and knocks them on their ass.

**mantis c.hp: **Good poke to use now and then, good range, stuffs a lot of pokes (godlike vs for example chun li as it beats a lot of her pokes, ha take that you bitch!). Also important is that it can act as a solid anti-air. This will take some practice, but it’s really good for AA’ing deep jump ins.

**crane c.hk: **Arguably his best and most solid anti-air. Has 5 active frames now in AE so it will trade less if you time it right. Downside is that you have to switch or be in crane stance to perform it obviously. But once you fluidly switch stances it will be no problem.

Time for a video example of excellent footsies/poking. This is Amiyu, currently considered the best (or one of the best) Gens in the world and 1# in the arcade rankings:

[media=youtube]wuRxfHGwLaw[/media]

As you can see he uses a lot of the pokes I have mentioned just now and constantly is in and out poking range.

You may have noticed these are almost all mantis pokes. That’s because his crane ground pokes really aren’t all that great, infact some of them are just horrible. I basically regard mantis as the ground stance or ‘footsie’ stance and will only go into crane on the ground if I want to go for the overhead (s.mp) or underhead (s.hp, to mix it up after I already did an overhead). Some people likes to use crane c.mp as a poke aswell and it is pretty decent.

Crane stance is my ‘air’ stance so to speak. His jump arc in crane has massive range and can really surprise opponents who throw a fireball thinking it was safe etc. His crane air normals like j.hp are amazing and can stuff or air to air almost everything if you pressed earlier than your opponent. Oh and ofcourse crane j.hk x2 leads into crane U1 so that’s a plus right there. Another important thing to note is that mantis and crane stances both have different jump arcs and walkspeeds. Mantis stance has a slightly slower walkspeed and a shorter, more bunny hop-like jump arc. Crane stance has a faster walkspeed and a very very long jump arc that can often suprise opponents (they may throw a fireball thinking you can’t jump and punish…but you can). Use this to your advantage, mix the stances up to subconsiously mess with your opponent. It’s a very important part of playing Gen in my opinion and no one ever really mentions it much. This, again, adds to the footsies element of Gen, sometimes you’ll be faster, sometimes you’ll neutral jump with crane stance and in the air you press ppp to automatically switch back to mantis stance as soon as you land etc. Which leads me to my next point…

Combos

In mantis you will atleast need:

c.mp> hp hands, this is a main bnb for footsies. It can lead to super on hit and you can FADC the 4th hit of the hands into s.mp> s.hp, s.mk> lk gekiro for solid damage and momentum. The s.hp and s.mk is the target combo in case you hadn’t discovered that yet. It used to be s.mk into hands as a bnb but in AE c.mp has better startup, slightly better damage, and the same range so…use this.

c.lk> c.lp> s.hp, s.mk> lk gekiro (on Seth, Sagat, Cammy and Cody you can do hk gekiro), Another must know bnb combo for Gen in AE. This one is tricky because the c.lp to s.hp is a one frame link, but honestly it’s well worth practising. You can start this combo by a jump in (crane j.mk, mantis j.mk) or just from the ground if you happen to hit the c.lk.

In crane you *can do: *

*c.mp> roll (any strenght), *honestly I don’t combo with crane a lot, it is my support stance and sure sometimes if I like to be flashy I’ll combine mantis and crane for combos but that’s for another time maybe :wink:

j.mk>s.lp>c.lk (you can follow up by changing stances with mantis c.hk), a decent combo, like a lot of ground crane stuff it isn’t the most safe thing to do.

Another good blockstring I still like to do from vanilla is s.mp> s.mk> hands. It pushes people away quite a lot (into the corner lol).

Anyway these combos are what I would say essential, especially the mantis ones. Now there are a LOT of other combos you can do, and most will come to naturally after playing awhile, some are just flashy and not very practical in terms of damage. I won’t go into further detail on these combos because they don’t have any place in this thread. The two mentioned mantis combos alone + the FADC combo are pretty much the staple of a good Gen. I barely even use that much other combos, most of my damage comes from these combos + footsies/hitting pokes. Things like switching stances in combos should only be done if you feel comfortable doing so. Examples of this are crane j.hk x2> a mantis combo of your choosing, or mantis s.mp> crane c.mp> roll.

Oh and if you have trouble doing HK gekiro (waterfall kicks) watch this video, it shows clearly the timing and also shows his hands:

[media=youtube]E7wMz6tOEac[/media]

The timing for the lk version is practically the same, except shorter. it’s 6 hits so you will gradually speed up and the 4,5, 6 hits will be quickly after eachother. You can vary this a lot and you will need to for some walldive cross-up setups, but we won’t get into that since that’s a little advanced.

Supers and Ultra’s

Because Gen has two stances (o rly) he also has two supers and Ultra’s at his disposal. First let’s talk supers. His mantis super is arguably the best super in the game, at least top 3. It does very good damage, can be hitconfirmed from his bnb combo (basically any hp hands combo), has crazy range (hp version reaches nearly fullscreen, lk version has invincibility frames on start-up), and can punish A LOT. When I say a lot, I really mean it. A few examples are doing hp version super when Akuma throws an air fireball, Ibuki’s kunai airthrow, and after blocking Rufus’s c.hp, but there are a lot more of these type of punishes which I may get into later in another post.

Crane super is basically the best anti-air (Hakans ultra comes close, but is stationary) in the entire goddamn game. I mean holy shit, the hk version reaches like 3/4 of the screen and has 0+1 frame start-up. What this means for you is that anytime your opponent jumps in at you or neutral jump anywhere but about fullscreen you can activate the super and it will grab them, even if they are about to land again. Oh you can also combo into it by doing crane j.hk (x2). It’s almost ridiculous I’m suprised they never nerfed it[SIZE=1] capcom dont nerf it pls ;_;[/SIZE]

Let’s talk Ultra’s. First up the U1 set. His U1 is usually the preferred set of ultra’s. His mantis U1 is basically like his mantis super except it does more damage. It can be combo’ed after doing mantis super for good damage, but much like his mantis super it can also be used to punish a wide variety of things which, like I said, I may get into in a later post.

Crane U1 is like a shittier version of his crane super. It has way less range and worse start-up. However it can still be useful as an anti-air if your opponent is prone to doing neutral jumps, or if you just know your opponent is going to jump in at you, just make sure to be in range so practice that a bit before you whiff that shit. Oh and like his super you can also combo this from crane j.hk (x2). This ultra doesn’t do as much damage as the mantis ultra, but regardless if you have the oppertunity to use why the fuck not, all in all a pretty decent ultra.

Gens U2…I have to be honest I almost never use it. His crane U2 is great against fireball characters since you can jump and imidiately do the ultra (by doing the tigerknee motion) if your opponent throws a fireball and it will hit them as they can’t recover fast enough, unless it’s guile. However I personally feel mantis U2 is pretty crappy and while there have been made interesting discoveries of crane U2 cross-up setups, and oga cross-up setups after doing mantis U2…I just have no interest in this set. Maybe another Gen player can elaborate on his U2 and give a list of pro’s and cons :slight_smile:

Shenanigans, safejumps, and other stuff

Gen has a lot of tricks up his sleeve. That’s why a lot of Gens have contributed to making this handy little spreadsheet which includes safejumps, walldive cross-ups, and even super and Ultra cross-ups if you like to be cheeky in a casual match:

At the very least, learn all of the possible safejumps in the first column, as they will save your life and make your jumpins…well…safe!

I would also suggest checking my Gen shenanigans sticky thread as it contains a lot of info on footsies aswell as other little tricks and walldive cross-ups that aren’t mentioned anywhere else. A lot of good stuff going on in that thread.

Nice wall of text bro, but I need visuals

I know that feel bro. Check out the video thread and observe how people play Gen. Playstyles can differ a lot. But the general consensus is that the best Gen players are Amiyu and Xian at the moment, so check them out on youtube and see how they play Gen. It should give you ideas on how to aproach Gen and may inspire you!

I would recommend to check out:

  • Amiyu (topranked Japanese Gen in the arcades)
  • Xian (recently beat daigo and won a tourney in Singapore, great Gen)
  • Warriorbysand (interesting Gen player on XBL)
  • Redwolfx (very unique Gen player, uses a lot of tricks though, not my preferred playstyle)

Well there you have it, pretty much the basics of what a starting Gen needs to absolutely know, understand, and be able to execute. Feel free to ask questions and other Gen veterans please give feedback and thoughts. I will probably edit this a lot in the future and add stuff.


#2

What the fuck should I use Oga (walldive) for?

Walldives are an interesting tool in his arsenal, but many people seem to either abuse it too much or never use it at all. As a beginner there are a couple of things to note about walldive:

  • All versions (lk mk hk) of Oga are unsafe on block. There are situations you make it more safe or even safe, like doing lk oga from a certain distance, or doing a ceiling drop Oga right as someone waked up. Which brings me to my next point…

  • You can control the oga in all kinds of directions. What this means is that you can first choose which wall you want to fly towards, whether nor not to do a straight oga or go upto the ceiling and drop down on your opponent. When dropping down you still steer left or right for a angled ceiling drop oga which is sometimes useful for catxhing opponents who try to jump back/forward.

  • Hooking onto the previous point, because you control the oga you can also opt to fly up to a wall and hold your stick into the direction of the wall in which case Gen simply doesn’t do anything. I call this a feint oga. This is great because you can get opponents to do stuff (lobvious example: mash uppercut) that you can punish. Eeven if you can’t reach them in time to punish it’s a good mindgame tool.

  • EX oga has projectile invincibility on start-up. This means it is sometimes useful to dodge a projectile, Let’s say a ryu is trying to chip you out in the corner and does his super, during the animation just charge the EX oga and do it to the opposite wall of him and you’ll go through the super and fly into safety. Oh, EX rolls are also projectile invincible and may hit your opponent if timed correctly. (^_^}

  • Ceiling oga is Gens best single chip damage finisher.

  • I personally don’t use Oga much at all except for ceiling drop chipdamage, the occasional feint oga, or more importantly a oga cross-up. These so called cross-ups can be found in the last few pages of the Gen shenanigans thread + the spreadsheet document which I linked earlier in this article. Intermediate+advanced stuff, but well worth learning atleast a few. If you are already interested in learning a few oga cross-ups I suggest you learn the ones that work on Ryu and Ken. They are fairly easy compared to the rest. For example: if you hit bnb into lk gekiro (juggle them as high as possible) on both of them and immidiately (switch stances first!) do lk oga to the opposite wall and direct it straight at them it will cross-up on them if they did a quickstand, if they didn’t…whatever you’re safe.

Super & Ultra punishes

Guess what *motherfucker, *I didn’t forget what I said earlier in this guide about listing punishes for his super(s) and ultras. I will probably forget tons and people will start whining BRO ADD DIS but I’ll do my best to give atleast the most common and useful examples. If you learn to punish this type of stuff you can basically change how your opponent can play his own character or at the very least lock down some or one of his moves. Some of these play a vital role in playing Gen at a higher level and some of them will test your reaction speed sometimes. Let’s start…

Mantis super & ultra

**Akuma: **air fireballs (unless done really really low) can be punished almost fullscreen with hp super and ultra.
**Dhalsim: 1) **j.hp on block with hp super as Sim is recovering from hitstun he cannot teleport in time.
**Dhalsim 2) **Random teleports *can *be punished by both mantis super and crane super, have to be fast though and it’s kind of hard.
**Ibuki: **air knife (kunai) can be punished by hp super and ultra.
**Rufus: 1) **EX messiah on block can be punished by lp super and ultra after doing them by blocking the initial blockstring. In between the follow-up Rufus chooses (lp super has start-up invincibility remember?) you can mash 'em out and 2/3 options he can pick will be hit by them. A gamble and it depends on how aggressive the Rufus is though, but worth mentioning.
**Rufus 2) **Blocked c.hp can be punished by hp super no matter which distance.
**Bison: **Blocked headstomp with hp super or ultra. You can also punish devil’s reverse with both of them but you need to time it so he’s flying about midscreen or slightly higher.
EDIT: apparently you can even punish headstomps with mantis super+ultra if it hits as long as you do it early. Also, if you block the headstomp and the Bison goes for the j.hp follow-up (a lot of them like to) you can do super or ultra as he does that.
**Adon: 1) **Jaguar tooth (any version) can be punished by mantis hp super or ultra . Just mash it out and he does jaguar tooth at any time.
**Adon 2) **Jaguar kick can be punished on reaction by both mantis super and ultra. Kind of tricky but if you have the reactions it severely limits what Adon can do once you get ultra or super.
**Thawk: **Condor dive can be punished by mantis super and ultra on block.
**Vega 1): **Both of his backflips can be punished by both mantis super and ultra. Watch out to time it right though and check which flip he is using. Otherwise your super/ultra will whiff through him if he uses the longer backflip version, which has happened to me recently fuck you vega im so salty.
**Vega 2) **Vega can’t freely do flying barcelona anymore. Punishable with mantis super and ultra on block and also if he does a feint (flies toward a wall and does nothing afterwards).
**Balrog: **You can punish any of his dash punches with both mantis super and ultra. Requires very good reaction time, but it can change the match-up a lot once you get super and or ultra.
**Fuerte: **You can punish a blocked splash with both mantis super and ultra.
**Honda: 1) **You can punish HP (fullscreen) headbutts with mantis super. Not sure about mantis ultra
Honda 2) You can punish neutral jump hp with mantis super and ultra. Time it so he’s at the apex of the jump when you do it.
Chunli: You can punish neutral jump hk with mantis super and ultra. Time it so she’s at the apex of her jump when you do it.
**Ryu & Ken: **lp super can go through fireballs due to start-up invincibility frames. This is useful if a shoto does c.mk into hadouken and it is not a true blockstring (depends on spacing). You mash can super out if it isn’t. This a little tricky to perform but with experience you can know what the spacing of their c.mk is and when it counts as a true blockstring or not. Note that this works for all projectiles (Sagat, Rose…) however it will be even harder to do this if you are new against others because you will need to read their game and ‘know’ when they will throw a projectile and (possibly dash up, i.e. if Sagat spams tiger shots) do lp super.

This list isn’t finished yet, will need feedback + I’ll probably remember some more soon


#3

dude the best anti air in the fucking game is not really crane super, the thing can be safejumped by a 4 frame safe jump, eg Ryu sweep jump forward hk, because its 0+1 super but hakan ultra which is 0+0 now that is the ultimate anti air bro lol! also the super invincibility of crane was nerfed I believe, before it is invincible all the way up but now I think its around 6 frames (correct me if i am wrong)

About crane normals, for me its an integral part of my game too. I am still working on perfecting it but crane cHK is IMO the best AA normal for Gen (5 active frames) his bull horn is 300stun and his standing fierce is 200damage and hits low. but oh well its more of advanced. for beginners I suggest they focus on mantis first.

GREAT WRITE UP.

PS. Also include NU in the Gen to watch too.


#4

Only Hakans is better, however that is a stationary anti-air. gens crane super reaches a lot further, Hakan just lays there all greasy and shit. I’ve added crane c.hk, I forgot to mention that one.

Who is NU though?

Forgot to mention, but yeah his can get stuffed. I don’t know everything that can stuff it and it never really happened to me except that one time against Guy’s elbow. That’s the most famous one I reckon…other than that…


#5

NU is my official sensei, plays a heavy Gen, havent seen him in a while, he may be in the Hamalayian mountain lol


#6

I was trying to do crane cr.hk against Dudley, but his elbow drop (j.hk) seemed to beat it clean. Is that my timing, or does that move just beat cr.hk?


#7

your timing. cr.hk when spaced and timed correctly should never flat lose.


#8

Cool. I’ll must have been reacting too late to the jump in. I’ll get my timing sorted out and hopefully it will be more useful.


#9

Added section about Oga + Super and ultra punishes (mantis).

Need some help with that last part though. I’m sure I’m forgetting a bunch. Also if I remember correctly is it possible to punish a blocked overhead kick from chun li with mantis super?


#10

I think he means Nubbb…


#11

Chun’s OH is safe on block (-1 or even).


#12

I feel like i’m not using Oga enough. Can anyone give me some tips on common setups for Oga shenanigans? Forward throw ect. I find it hard to grasp.

Also. Amazing Write up, Couldn’t read it all due to the fact im tired as hell. Will read tomorrow.


#13

Actually I would like to know or see some information about strait down ceiling drop oga on an opponents wakeup. I understand you can control which direction they need to block it?


#14

If you went to ceiling from the left wall, they need to hold left to block it.
If you went to ceiling from the right wall, they need to hold right to block it.

In the corner it gets messed up and you get unblockables, block one way no matter the side you kicked from, or block different direction depending on how meaty your ceiling jump kick is depending on characters.


#15

So the only effective use of strait down ceiling drop oga is a meaty in the corner? Is there a universal setup for this?

Like untechable knockdown heavy oga? How close to the corner?


#16

Or chip as it is REALLY hard to reversal out of your way if they do it slightly non-meaty.

In the very corner, there’s no universal setup. Well I’ve seen Sako doing those HK Gekiro finish -> Crane cr.LP whiff -> ceiling jump down a lot, but the way the opponent has to block depends on the character while it’ll hit meaty on all of the cast.


#17

Lol. Spend 3 Hours playing Endless just spamming Oga crossups and knockdown shenanigans.

People really don’t know how to counter this do they?


#18

Added video of amiyu vs some zangief, I think it conveys ‘what gen is all about’ pretty well in that match. Pure footsies.


#19

That game was so godlike. Amazing footsies from both players. Also, those mindgames that Amiyu used were insane. When he got those 4 bars I would of loved to have been in Giefs head. Panic mode on


#20

Amiyu says that high level matches against Zangief players (he usually plays against Cantona, for example) are like a diet regime. Because of the extreme focus and attention on spacing they require :slight_smile: