"Gettin' that Bike $!" AE Balrog Match-up Thread

balrog

#561

i think a more important question is why would Blanka pick U2 to attempt to chip you out, when he can knock you down and do ambiguous cross-up U1 for chip and possible kill almost for free. Although it’s possible there’s an incredibly slim chance Blanka would pick U2 against Balrog…IF you had a fireball, it’d be a different story. U1 is 4f in range and goes low high, much better for the matchup IMO.


#562

I agree with you about picking ultra 2, doesn’t make sense to me either but still pays to know how to deal with it.
(I hate that ambiguous ultra 1)

I jumped the first ground pound but when i jumped again I landed to early and got blown up.
Maybe It’s something like fwd.jump the first one neutral.jump the next?


#563

Blanka can hold it (like U1), and then he can go anti-air or ground (which hits low). It’s like relatively fast (sub 12f), so if you’re more than 1/2 distance inside lp.ds range, I severely doubt U1 will get to him before it’s invincibility wears off. I remember not being able to punish this at all, but i’m talking a lot of theory fighter, just got off work so i’ll be back and let you guys know if I find out anything.

Edit: exHeadbutt was right for the most part and it doesn’t seem as if he can charge them like U1 (i was mistaken), both break armor, ground one hits low. Headbutt probably isn’t viable at all. IF you’re full screen, you can double hop twice to cover the distance and be relatively safe, given you don’t press any buttons in the air. at 1/2 screen, the best punishes are: for AA, empty jump into grounded combo, make sure you hit him before the second burst. for ground, jump-in to crouching character combo.

AA Ultra - This one has a pretty huge deadspot to the right and left of it, the hitbox is much narrower than it may seem. So in general as long as you’re not empty jumping “over” him, you can’t get hit by the ultra. If you’re pressing buttons in the air,it seemed more likely to get caught by it than not (e.g. I jumped in at the same distance pressing a button made me get caught, while not pressing a button made me safe). You CAN be hit by the Ultra if you’re grounded and try to attack him with something on the ground, like a standing jab. DO NOT headbutt, it will beat all of them, it’s kind of like a capture Ultra. IF you’re within about half screen, you can punish it with an empty jump into grounded combo (he’s considered standing).

Ground Ultra - This one hits low, and if he does it full screen, you can’t completely avoid the chip. You can avoid most of it by doing two fwd.jumps (just hold up forward), and you get on the tail end of the Ultra, the push back is still pretty bad, so all I could punish with was st.hp, cr.hk, dash straight, and ex.ru. You can Ultra/super on reaction if you’re at about 3/4 screen away (give or take). There’s not enough time to dash ultra on reaction. Also unless you jump before the freeze, you can’t jump, get enough back-charge, then land and super (or at least I couldn’t). If you can then, that’s a possibility too. If you’re within jumping range (1/2 screen), you can jump after the freeze into a jump-in (he’s considered crouching, so you have to use cr.lp, cr.mp to combo into headbutt). You have to confirm whether it’s the AA one of the ground one, then press a button.


#564

…So in other news, The Blanka matchup just got a bit easier for me. Found out that Balrog can safe jump his ex.AA ball pretty easily (easier than other 4f reversals). Bwd.throw, fwd.dash, j.hk, always works…no matter what, but you have to use roundhouse, fierce will whiff. And to make that even better, here’s a O/S to beat either his backstep roll or his ex.up ball: bwd.throw, fwd.dash, j.hk (or cr.hk, walk back 2-steps, j.hk) DELAYED cl.mp (as if you’re comboing into it off of a jump in). the cl.mp always comes out and is a true blockstring. IF he does ex.up ball, you block, if he does ex.backstep roll, your late cl.mp comes out and tags him before he goes active.

I’ve got my equipment already hooked up so i’ll make a quick video.

Edit:
[media=youtube]vK9QedvAQlU[/media]


#565

I plan to throw in my 2 cents and maybe help fill in some holes at some point, I’ve not really posted here before and havent read the threads in quite awhile.

My best friend is a Guy main so i figured i could throw in a couple notes for the match really quick that I didnt see when i scanned what was already there. Dont block high unless it is an obvious situation, elbow can be cr blocked and ball grab will whiff. Try to position yourself at the distance where he cannot cross you up and you can anti air anything with cr. HP. HB anti air is risky in this match because it is susceptible to bushin grab. His most powerful mixups come from after being knocked down with a combo into run slide. All he has to do is hold up and its a four frame safe jump with an OS behind it. Look out for empty jump short in this situation because it leads into 2hit Target combo into the same situation again. Do your best to keep him out, but dont panic when he is doing run stop pressure. If you push buttons he will frame trap you into one of many CH combos, so force him to throw you. EX shoulder and OH kicks are punishable. stMK beats his normal slide.
Something else worth knowing about Guy in general is that once he hits you with one EX ball grab for a knock down, there is a one frame window where even if you hold down back, another EX ball grab will grab you on your wake up. Back Dash, TAP, HB, and any dash punch all lose to this if timed correctly, leaving rog with no options to deal with it. Best choice is to back dash in hopes that he will not hit that timing, but if its a good Guy player he will loop you with this for fat damage. Each one does around 180 iirc so its no bueno. EX tatsu can be safe jumped w/ four frame setups, but four frame safe jumps lose to wake up U2 so be aware of that.

Ultimately rog wins this match with strong footsies, most importantly whiff punishing and being a wall of anti airs. Keep guy on the ground and out of your face and its a free win for rog. Atleast 6-4 Rog.


#566

FYI, this is a meaty air grab that grabs you on the first frame where you wake up. This operates on the same principles as Hakan’s uncrouchable oil dives and Akuma’s demon flip grab. If backdashing doesn’t seem like a smart option (I assume he can O/S run or ex.tatsu, etc). Then you can do a “reversal” crouching normal on wakeup. This thwarts the “crouch delay” which causes you to stand on your first waking frame, and forces his bushin flip to whiff since you crouch immediately after you wakeup. This does OPEN you up to CH’s if he does a meaty jump in or elbow versus an actual bushin flip throw.

I haven’t tested it, but I’m about 90% sure it’ll work.

It’s hella hard to consistently get a reversal crouching normal, you can’t mash it, you have to press it…once. There’s a post some pages back (or maybe in the OPs) that describes how to beat Hakan’s uncrouchable oil dives and mentions a setup that can be used to practice.

Nice matchup advice btw.

Edit: It was in the Art of Punishing thread: The Art of Punishing
Read the spoiler titled “Hakan Meaty oil dive example”


#567

The only thing is that you cant do the ball into throw or do nothing and land w/ an option select. While a reversal normal would work against hakan like you said in the punishing thread, I do not think it would work against Guy. If the guy player pushes any punch button he will either grab you if you are close enough or elbow will come out. If he does not hit a button he will land w/ too much recovery to do an O/S. If you do a wake up normal to make the grab whiff then the elbow will always come out and counter hit you. He has little to no hurtbox on his legs during the elbow drop making most moves lose to it. The reason backdash is the best option is because if he drops the one frame window where the uncrouchable grab is possible, and you back dash then elbow comes out and you get a sweep whiff punish. If you just down back it, then you block the elbow and he gets to pressure you.

I’m pretty sure thats what would happen atleast, but a reversal crouching normal would definitely be a good thing to test. I was hanging out w/ my friend who plays Guy so i consulted him for this and just posted what his take on that option was.


#568

[media=youtube]kxTI52atwvI[/media]


#569

Sweet, this is just the kind of vid I was looking for coming here haha. Thanks!


#570

I’ve just read all of the match-ups of the first posts, they’re great although I felt disappointed about two things…

How comes that TAP has now become a great move/answer ? In my opinion, this move should never be used, no matter how desperate, just don’t ever use it. It is so bad, you can never be sure of its start-up, its range (if you’re gonna end up at frame advantage or not), and it is per se unsafe. There isn’t a single good reason it should ever be used (and please, don’t tell me you can juggle U1 after it, using TAP as an anti-air must be one of most random things Balrog can do)

There’s a reason why japanese skilled Rog players never use it… -R- keeps using it consistently and I believe that’s why he’s considered as a no-brainer when it comes to high level play (speaking of tourneys). But in the states and Europe, Balrog players keep TAP-ing everything they’re thrown at, which is an awful no-brain mistake (JSMaster…). I’ve seen PR Balrog use TAP to get through all sorts of things, but I don’t recall he’s ever won any of these games (check out Youtube) or used it as a weapon of choice as opposed to a desperate move.

The second thing is that these match-ups barely consider playing a standing Balrog, but someone said it before, I just want to back it up. In relation to what I’ve just said, it’s a shame that players are not pushed towards that way. Indeed, most of the time when you see a standing Balrog player walking up to his opponent, make no mistake! TAP is around the corner!


#571

I was/am one of those Balrog’s who spam TAP.

TAP is a VERY good move. I’m not saying it’s safe, i’m not saying its unpunishable, i’m not saying it’s the be-all to anything. But, what I am saying is that it’s an invincible move that has a shit-ton of startup (30f) and has a decent window of invincibility (about 10f) meaning that it can blow up about 3/4 of the entire game’s moveset.

Citing well-known players in this case is bad. Even worse is citing the use of TAP from a tournament standpoint. For example: PR rog knows about Option-selects, meaties, setups etc, but will ONLY use headbutt mixups because its safe and doesn’t put him at any real risk. Meaties, safe jumps, and setups always put you at risk because if your opponent knows about it, they can punish or read your attempts. TAP is not that kind of move, TAP is risky, telegraphs really bad, but it still VERY useful.

TAP is a quintessential part of Balrog’s moveset because it moves you 1/2 a screen forward without losing down/back-charge, if lvl1 can give you -2 on block (also setting you up for a throw/bait game), and can cause massive chip damage at high levels. I already noted that in some turtle fests like Claw or Guile, it may make sense to charge a HIGH level tap since you spend so much of the match running around reading their projectile/movement patterns to a point where you can releas that final TAP for massive chip damage and if you get the hit, ridiculous (game ending) damage.

yes I agree that a standing Balrog is not what a lot of the matchups follow, generally because I wrote them a while back, and because balrog has use of ALL of his tools by holding down+back or back. When Balrog walks forward the only thing an opponent has to worry about from him are counterpokes like st.hp, cr.hk, st.hk, and TAP. Balrog doesn’t have a really good Focus attack, so by walking forward in some matches, you lose a great deal of your advantage. So in general, I do advocate a down+back Balrog ONCE you gained the correct spacing so the opponent can’t get out of range of your tools.


#572

I’m afraid I have to disagree with everything you said, but then again, that’s only my point of view and judging by your posts in the forums, Rog’s moves are in your field of expertise so I’m not taking this into a who’s right issue!

I’m sure you’re well aware that TAP has a fixed start-up, as opposed to the running start-up of Rog’s dash punches. This means that no matter how far or how close you are to your opponent, TAP won’t come out before it completes its 30 frame start-up. And 30 frames of fixed start-up is a bloody hell lot of time just to get that punch started !

Because of this fixed start-up and the lack of pursuit property (meaning the move doesn’t target the opponent, as opposed to all of the other dash punches), TAP isn’t a reliable tool. Charge it for half a second and you have no control over the following half second (yes, 30 frames do last about 0.5 sec). Things get worse when you add active frames and recovery frames : 50 frames if you only charged that thing for 0.5sec. That’s almost a full second of jail time. But don’t worry, your opponent will make sure you get outta there quick.

That’s why, as a Balrog player (never played anybody but him since vanilla), I am convinced that TAP is a random move. If you wanna test your luck, go ahead and TAP through everything, or even better! reach for that Final TAP.

No need to insist on the fact that this is only the way I view things, but let me back that up and give you a simple demonstration.

In a real match, versus a decent player, if at some point you’re able to predict what will happen during the next 30 frames and decide to reach for the TAP, then why don’t you do anything else that would use that window and provide you with the same effects but with different (and better) properties ?

If you’re visionnary enough to react 30 frames ahead of the match, then use that power to maximize damage and stun output.
I mean, 10 frames of invincibility or not, 30 frames is something. That’s the equivalent of three Ultra 1. Like, if your reaction time was bad and you missed the first window, *don’t worry bud!, two more to go! *That’s also the equivalent of Dash Forward > Ultra 1.

For that reason, using TAP would be like using Ultra 1 or Dash forward > Ultra 1 on a random intuition basis.
I’m really not saying you should Ultra 1 instead of TAP (really not!) but I’m writing this for the sake of comparison.

The main difference is that Ultra 1 has pursuit properties, meaning not only do you have control over the dash forward range, but you also know at which point the Ultra 1 will hit and how far it’s gonna reach for the opponent. Therefore, Dash Forward > Ultra 1 makes a reading guess possible, rewarding and even crucial as it regulates the risk/reward equation.

But while Ultra 1 has an 11 frame activation, all fully invincible, TAP has a 30 frames activation making its punish use much less rewarding or even possible.


#573

You’re on a pixel of health, knocked down vs Seth, you have no meter at all.
what to do? TAP! you know he’s going to srk for the chip, you can avoid it and still be alive.

You’re waking up to a meaty Bison ultra 2 (I actually have been meaning to ask what all the options for this are) as far as i know, TAP is your best option, that or guess the block?(again I’m not sure, enigmatic could you elaborate the options for this too me please)

Also OS on teleports, what are you going to do without TAP? just let them teleport away for free and loose all your pressure?

it has uses, almost every single move in the game has a use.

plus if you start doing unthrowable TAPs they get even better.
Still yeah use sparingly, like anything else though really.


#574

i’m a bit of a fantic when it comes to TAP, so take this with a grain of salt.

TAP can actually punish a lot of things on reaction. Take for example, counter pokes (and fireballs). Balrog does a pre–emptive cr.hk. cr.hk is so laggy, even Balrog can FADC dash forward into a combo, but with it’s shitty range, there are some ranges where TAP is more effective and ex.dashes aren’t as effective because he’s crouching. So you TAP. TAP has 30f of startup no matter the level (only active and recovery frames change). cr.hk has a total animation of 8+2+22 (32) other attacks like dash punches have a shit-ton more animation frames. There are ranges where you can blow through those types of attacks, and given their ability to counter TAP you’ll possibly get a CH (as TAP has a hitbox that protrudes in front of his hurtboxes and hits crouchers).

There are ranges where you can TAP through fireballs and it’s a punish. And to make matters even better is if they block. You talk to any Ryu player, they have somewhat of a time figuring out when they can and can’t punish TAPs through fireball. A blocked TAP sets rog up for an easy 50/50 into throw, headbutt, or ex.dash which usually beats all of the casts options. And to make matters even worse for the opponent, it’s -2, meaning if they reversal you get O/S block and/or the opportunity to read the reversal and counter it.

TAP has it’s places, but i feel if you’re not using it at least sparingly, it’s akin to not abusing cr.hk against Zangief.

To polenykes post about meaty Bison U2, you’re only is TAP. beats it 100% of the time, jumping won’t work since it’s a low hit and backdash or blocking is a 50/50.


#575

I’m stil not sure about that, but hey, Balrog can be played in so many different ways.

TAP leaves you at -2 on block only if you charged it for 0.5 sec, and with such a short time, you can’t even be speaking of charging but pressing. So you only press and release the command, and still, you’ve just pulled out a move 30 frames ahead of your opponent’s game.

Otherwise, Balrog reaches a regular charge of TAP Lvl 2 (which is as you know at 2sec). And according to what you’re saying, you’re charging TAP hoping to read some punish window. So if you want your guess to be as accurate as possible, you won’t release TAP before that special event happens. The big drawback here is that by doing so, you’re risking reaching TAP Level 2 which will leave you at -5 on block (and even -1 on hit).

Anyway, yeah, I guess you could still use it sparingly! (the greater the player the more careful you have to be about that move!)


#576

How can anybody say that TAP is a purely random useless move? Option selects, closing the distance, closing the distance with a TAP and fadc backdash ultra when they dont have a way around it blah blah. I could write a damn essay on why that move is good. I am sorry mr bellow Rog soldier but you are a madman. And most Rogs at high level don’t use the move because they don’t practice the skillset of holding it down and moving around. God I would hate to see how you fair vs good sim players when you deny yourself the ability to at least be menacing with that option.


#577

Dude, if you still believe TAP stands any chance versus good players, I hope someday you realise just how wrong you are. And I won’t even talk about that “TAP fadc backdash Ultra 1”, seriously, what a joke.

Oh, and I wouldn’t be that pretentious if I were you, I mean, seriously man ? You’re gonna say that top players are so wrong when you are so right ? If you ever wish to level up, pay some respect to those who, so far so bad, have got nothing to learn from you.


#578

I see tap being used by even pr rog…setting up counterhit taps(usually focus breaks) and nailing a combo off it. If you wanna talk about top players…what rog is better? If you are going to starting throwing words like pretentious around try to at least have your facts rather then simply being presumptuous. And im glad to know nobody has anything to learn:) diclawsus on youtube…I have plenty to teach my friend. Im sorry to have pissed in your corn flakes.


#579

Yeah right, you’re right dude, go ahead, TAP’s your best friend.

Chill out man, if you’re considering playing this game seriously, you’ll eventually get there.


#580

ahh screw it, can’t even argue since you ignore the things we’re saying and just say whatever you want.

…anyway, since that discussion is going nowhere.

I’ve noticed a lot of the Abels I’ve played against lately are picking ultra 2, but none of them have even activated it(let alone hit with it) in the last maybe 20-30 games.
Any opinions for which ultra Abels should be using?
I was almost going to counterpick with ultra 2 so if they caught me jumping I could mash it out after the freeze. but so far hasn’t been an issue.