Getting bodied with certain characters


#1

C.Viper:

  • Still having issues with how slow the start up on …everything she has is. Even her c.MK loses to stuff and get eaten up by faster normals all the time.
  • Damage wise I don’t think I’m really getting enough output from her to justify her risk and execution level and the online lag barrier for her. After all my effort, a Ryu j.HK, f.HP?, h.DP does more or as much dmg as my rare to complete FFF.
  • I get anti-aired a lot going for my cross up j.MK, or my sj. burn kick stuff.
  • My burn kicks get blocked a lot. I think, I’m TKing them but sometimes the motion makes me go backwards and miss.
  • My burn kicks miss 80 percent of the time whether it be they go over my opponent (most common). Or if its like a sj cancel seismo into flying BK they usually miss and I have a hard time gauging which to use. I can land them in training mode regularly but not often in matches.
  • I get punished with a full ultra all the time for dropping anti air H.Thunder knuckle --> U1. Again, its something I land a lot in training mode but online I drops frequently.
  • FFF the last fierce doesn’t come out sometimes and I end up just doing j.HP, s.HP, TK feint then tick throws or thunder knuckles.
  • T. Knuckles and throws are my main source of damage. Even if I can get some burn kick vortex going it doesn’t do enough damage to justify a lot of how bad Viper’s footsies are and her poo health.
  • SJing sometimes my opponent will jump at me and my normals lose air to air.
  • Vortexing gets me reversal’d

I have a 7.5K Guile and the same people I body with him brainlessly give me a hard time with Viper. Basic scrubby random stuff I have a hard time beating with her. Like jump all day people there isn’t simply air throw in corner and lock down to win option or the guy with over aggressive footsies simply boom and back fist all day until he jumps and eats c.HP. What people would consider “online tactics” give me a very hard time with offensive characters.

T. Hawk:

  • Not really sure how to Condor Spire into SPD like you would green hand SPD. I see a lot of people vortex with this after a SPD but I cannot seem to be close enough.
  • Can this guy kara into U1? otherwise my only option is empty jump or wakeup U1 which is hard to land on players who know to stay away from Hawk.
  • Characters that can safely poke mid range give me a hard time. Harder than zoners since at some point a zoner will give me a chance to Condor Dive in.

Ken:

  • Good players simply block his mix ups. Kara throw is nice, but ultimately doesn’t do a lot of damage.

Offensive characters, I lose with often. Everything just seems very unsafe to reversals. Or if I anticipate the reversals I kind of start losing my momentum.


#2

Looking for Guile specific advice? I can move this to the Guile section if you like.


#3

Actually the opposite. I main Guile, but am getting pwned with characters who are not Guile.


#4

It’s not complicated, good players simply wont let you hit them and they try to hit you. Viper can spam safe lightning gloves, T Hawk can spam grabs or hit you when your trying to jump out of way, etc stuff like that. When I use Guile I would use a poke combo into his charge move, you could just crouch down throw a sonic boom and if they jump in the air use flash kick, that’s basically all most of what people do with any charge character though I find it rather hard to rely mostly on just that alone. If all else fails just “keep training.”


#5

Take a break as Guile and Main those very characters you have trouble with. This way you will learn what their tools are and how to bettercounter them


#6

Its hard because I get so mad losing when I know I would win with Guile almost not even paying attention.


#7

at this point you are playing to learn, not playing to win. nothing worth doing is easy.


#8

I know the feeling, I’ve mained Makoto throughout most of the AE’s lifecycle and simply put I don’t transition well to defensive and footsie chars. I try to play Ryu and keep getting jumped in on for moronic fireballs. Trying Rose know to try and force a complete 180 on myself.

Its the nature of the beast, just because you can play one character well doesn’t mean you’re automatically good with everyone else. That’s why when pros pull out some random secondary they haven’t put a lot of time into they have a tendency to get bodied.

A few notes on offensive chars:

-Having tight setups is key. Safe jumps and good frame situations tend to be the starters. Know what your mixup is and what their options are - try not to be free styling it. This expends mental energy and detracts from focusing on your opponent leading to getting ‘randomed’ more often
-Be patient, offensive chars tend to have trouble getting in and blow people up once their there. That also means be as on point defensively as you can. Know what your options are in general situations; they’re probably not as optimal as more defensive minded chars.
-Don’t miss openings
-Keep their reversals in mind. Its part of the problem with offensive chars, they open themselves to a lot. Know setups to make them whiff or force them to burn meters to get away. The more their reversaling the better you know you’re doing. Unless you’re getting hit by them. Stop doing that.

I can’t speak char specific for Hawk or Viper. I know Viper’s normals are kinda crummy, but she’s like Seth, a char who bypasses normal footsies. Very involved to fully understand. At least for Ken tho, don’t underestimate his karathrow. The range is so high that its difficult for players to have anything they can do about it. Classic crouch techs don’t work since if he doesn’t go for it their crouch tech will whiff. Assuming they were looking for it to begin with. This is VERY nerve-wracking and lets him get in more often then he should. His setups off the throw themselves are deadly.


#9

C.Viper isn’t a footsie character. You can’t just throw normals out mindlessly, you’ll get punished for it. And If your opponent happens to block a normal, you should always cancel into hp tk feint. From there you can start your pressure (bait reversal, x-up sj.bk, non x-up iabk, dash throw, etc.)

How do you perform your sjc.BKs? 19214hk? If you do them that way, they will be high unless you can do the qcb really quickly. I prefer 2149 since they give me a low trajectory sjc.BK that goes over fireballs. Of course, if your opponent knows the match up, doing a low profile move (such as Ryu’s c.mk) will completely avoid BKs hit box. Against those opponents, you would want to go for more safe jump set-ups and normal jump-ins than x-up bks.

Dropping the second fierce in FFF means that you are pressing it too soon. Slow down a little bit and you will get it no problem. You should also practice FFF from a jump in hp or hk since the hit stun will throw off your FFF – most likely making you go too fast and end up doing j.hp/hk, c.f xxhp tk. You’ll land FFF more often once you learn her safe jumps so I’d suggest going to the C.Viper forum and reading the entire safe jump thread and start applying those to your matches.

For people just jumping around, such c.lp, c.lp, c.lp jump over, or those who jump right above your head, you may want to anti air with mk.


#10

Without at least a little footsying I don’t know how to start her pressure. Raw SJ in or SJ burn kick usually gets punished or just misses.

I don’t do sjc.BKs at the moment. For IA Burn kicks I try doing the TK motion (p1 side 21478HK) but I usually end up moving backwards.

Thanks for the advice.


#11

All in all thanks for the help so far, especially the detailed char specific stuff. I’ll try post some videos over the weekend of me getting bodied.


#12

Just to make the distinction clear, a sjc.bk is the low trajectory one that sends viper flying across the screen and IA BK are the ones that you use on wakeup as a x-up. Also to x-up, you want to do 2149hk/mk.

You should learn how to sjc.bk. You can use it to go over fireballs and even punish slow recovery normals with a good read. I tend to use mosly mk sjc.bks in neutral since that gives the most frame advantage on block


#13

The only sjc burn kicks I use are after a hit seismo and I just do DP then slide the stick up (623698)

I can spam seismos in UMVC3 with Viper well, but in SF4 I cannot do in training mode, I only did in laggy matches last night. The good news about that is I have the concept of how to do down, but for whatever reason my concept only worked in lag…so it might be a timing thing?)

When I do flying full screen burn kicks I almost always overshoot? Is the sjc you are talking about the way to make her closer to the top of the opponent? Will I get DP’d either way?


#14

I dunno if you go through the same problem as me. I main Ryu but when I play other characters I subconsciously play them somewhat the same way that I play Ryu, and that ends up getting me raped. Might just because you’re so used to what tools Guile has and not having access to the same tools in the scenarios you want them makes things difficult.

Or I’m totally wrong.


#15

No, I’m definitely spoiled by Guile’s normals and air control.


#16

I know the feeling. I main Balrog and I’ve been trying to transition to Makoto. It…hasn’t been very pretty to say the least. But like the others have said, pick up the characters you have trouble with to get a better picture of what they are able and unable to do. That way you’ll have a better understanding of those matchups with your main.


#17

Anyone have accidentally do Viper’s super when doing c.HP, EX seismo? This happens to me ALL THE TIME.