Getting inside, and getting karakusa

makoto

#1

Okay I’ve always been a borderline casual player, I travel to tournaments in my area and I am trying to level up, but I would not say I’m an avid tournament player by any means.

I’ve played third strike for awhile now, seriously off and on and I’m thinking about changing mains to keep the game fresh. (Plus I think I’m boring of my character, Remy, and Makoto is about as drastic a change as you can go from Remy. ) Anyway I’m trying out various characters to see where it falls and I’ve been practicing Makoto.

I can pull off consistently most of the smaller parts that makes Makoto, I can kara-karakusa most of the time. Full stun combo still needs work, I’m competent in my execution is what I’m trying to get across.

What I’m having trouble with, is I often dash into pokes, and just have a plan hard time getting karakusa on people more than maybe once a match. Are there any tips?

It seems to be most pronounced when I play Ken’s, because I’m often poked out of a lot of the stuff I try to do.

Basically this is a general question, but I guess from playing Remy I haven’t had a whole lot of experience in rushing someone down and just trying to get inside on them. So I’m trying to evolve from my defensive, poking, mindset into more aggressive offensive, momentum mindset. How does one effectively close the gap, and do so without getting poked out? (I would appreciate any responses even if not Makoto specific, since I’m trying to also round out my skillset by being able to play both defensively and offensively capably.)

So I know a lot of this may be from just plain lack of experience, but as I don’t have regular comp, I was wondering if you guys could give me any pointers to get me headed in the right direction on how to get inside. I’m so used to working to keep people away, :wgrin:.


#2

Sounds like we are in a similar boat. I often rely on KD’s and the ensuing wakeup guessing game to keep a rush going, it also supplies me with many opportunities to use Karakusa. If you can do the Kara-Karakusa reliably you can set it up pretty well with f-mp. The range of Makoto’s Kara-Throws can be absolutely brutal once you have the range dialed in.

Right now I’m also trying to learn how to keep pressure going once my opponent is out of my normal throw range. I’ve really focused on c.lk, s.hk, f.mp, c.mp, c.mk and the mp+mk overhead, just to learn their range and really find out how far out they can hit from.

Its detailed in haunt’s makoto guide, the c.lk>LP Hayate and the c.mp>Hayate combos can be effective for keeping pressure especially when the Hayate is canceled and you dash in for a throw. Also I’ll use c.lk>SAI in place of the c.lk>LP Hayate combo.

Learning the range of all the moves at your disposal is imperative for keeping your rush going. Also depending on how comfortable you feel with your opponent and the match in general you might want to try to purposely let the rush drop to bait your opponent into doing something, hopefully dumb.


#3

As vital as Karakusa is to Makoto’s game, you have to be able to spend a round without landing Kara at all…because people are looking for it to come out. I’ve landed Karakusa in a variety of ways…and I would suggest learning them all since you want to be able to land it from lots of different angels rather than the usual dash in Karakusa that everyone seems to love. That’s the biggest thing I like about Makoto, is that she is always a threat to throw some sort of Karakusa…whether it’d be a Kara-Karakusa, a dash in, a ticked one, off of a connected Hayate…etc. If your opponent is poking you, they are not really trying to mount an offense of their own, so much as just trying to keep you from dashing in on them. There are ways around this, I would suggest learning Hayate cancel setups a little more, since you can really throw off your opponent by doing this…especially just outside their poke range. They’ll whiff a poke thinking you’re gonna Hayate them and you get to scream out “BAITED!!!” as you dash in and get that free Karakusa.

Hope that helps just a bit.


#4

Thanks both these responses are good info. I realize now that at times I was going for karakusa too much, even getting it teched, which means I was being way to predictable for all the options I have. I’m still getting poked out of things, but I am trending in a better direction.

I do think I need to go for karakusa a little less, or really, learn some better setups. There were spots of time where I got everything going, and I had confused my opponent to the point I was getting karakusa all over the place because he was scared of other options, but it’s good advice, I’m also going to need to able to take people who shut down a part of my game as well.

I need to also practice some canceling hayate tactics, since I’m sure that is pretty good in the mindgames department.


#5

study frames.


#6

Makoto… Makoto… Makoto, look what you do to everyone that plays you.

So anyway, you know how everyone says Makoto is a walking mixup? The reason for that is more than the mixups she has when up close where she CAN go for a karakusa. It’s also because stopping her getting in is a mixup in itself. Dash (plus many ways to alter the timing), Ex Hayate (kara to mixup the timing), Jumping (lots of options here). When you need to (that’s pretty key), pick one and just fricking do it.

Once you do get in, wow, just, wow… the number of options just grew immensely. Karakusa + enless ways to land it, there’s like this curve of how often it will land depending on your opponent’s skill:
Noobies? High. (they play everyone the same)
Intermediates? Low. (cus they jump a lot cus they’re afraid)
Pros? about 50/50. (they know it’s a mixup)
(Kara-Karakusa should be a means to an end not an end itself, so it’s kinda silly to “set it up” IMHO)

Then there’s tons of stuff to knock them the hell out if they try to jump.
Buncha stuff into Ex Oroshi. Knockdown, no one will tech roll it on purpose unless they’re japanese. Against non-twins you can jump over them right away and get to the other side if you want to threaten with SA2. Normal LP Oroshi is good too and saves meter. Note: c.lk x LP Oroshi will whiff twins that jump back out of it, not in the corner though.

Same story with instant Ex Tsurugi. If they jump and only one hit connects you get to juggle with Hayates. If it’s blocked you can dash in, mix up the dash timing or hold hayate to punish stuff like whiffed shoto c.mk’s.

EDIT: It was getting out of hand and was typing way too much, I’ll just stop here… GL playing crazy dash girl.


#7
  • Right when the fight starts, dash in and karakusa. (Risky)
  • After a Karakusa -> FP xx Hayate, buffer another karakusa during the hayate. Another free combo! (Beware of jabs and shoryukens; mixup often with other post-hayate options like s.LK xx EX Chop, another hayate, c.HK, etc.)
  • “Tick throw” on jump-ins by hitting a late j.MK, j.MP and karakusa as soon as you land.
  • HK karakusa after a blocked s.MP
  • Forward + s.HK, hold -> Karakusa as soon as the animation is over. Seems like this is what that feint was made for.
  • As soon as they leave the ground, dash under, dash back, karakusa.
  • Instead of FP after karakusa, do another karakusa. (This is a really douchebag thing to do, but I do it sometimes to keep people on their toes.)
  • If you’re on the defensive, LK karakusa works great after a parry or whiffed shoryuken. Just be careful when you’re trying to karakusa after a blocked Ken SAIII, because he can EX Shoryu through it if he’s faster than you.

I don’t see what all the fuss is about kara-karakusa. If the LK hits, your karakusa will whiff, so I only really see a use for it on wakeup (too risky) or when the distance is just right.


#8

Do you play the same people regularly?

Do they know your habits and such…I find it harder to karakusa when I’m playing with my friends than when I’m playing random person x.


#9

I can’t believe I’m gonna say this, but you shouldn’t be giving advice. :wonder:


#10

Really getting close imo is all the work for Makoto. Characters like Yun, Chun, and Ken are pretty good at keeping you the hell off with their fast pokes and good runaway games.

1st thing is are your opponents good at spotting your dash attempts and stuffing them? Seems like your answer is yes. Scrubs/Intermediate players often have difficulty doing this and allow you to dash in more when you see them building meter or trying to just guess with a cr. MK or whatnot in hopes of catching you. When players are like this I like to play patiently outside their range and than try a jump attempt when i expect them to poke again, or dash in and throw them.

If they are good at it however Playing Makoto just became a lot harder for you. Jumping becomes dangerous as good players will dash under you unless you space your jumps very well, and dashing will make you eat a poke or at best get you a tech throw. Lots of good players will actually use an occassional light to try and bait a dash or jump and punish it, some spam them but that isn’t really necessary. They normally also use a lot less bar building pokes so that they can maintain the ability to counterpoke you.

However, you do have anwsers to this. You can space a good sweep as it has a lot of range and good priority if thrown out before a cr. MK. You can poke with cr. MP and hayate it to get close. If they are bar building you can hayate to punish or dash throw. Mix in some far jumps into j. MK, Tsurugi than mixup j. RH and whiff j. RH throw (much more effective than you’d expect if you mix it up right). Hayate canceling to bait a whiffed move just outside their range can give you an opportunity to attempt a mix up as after whiffing a poke so you can dash or counterpoke.

Just remember the better the player the worse option dashing in without some sort of advantage is.


#11

Howcome? Was all of my advice in that post no good…?


#12

I just want to thank people for the replies, I’m going to keep playing and try to keep a lot of the options in mind.

I think after hearing a lot of this, I will do better once I get a better feel for Makotos ranges.


#13

looool


#14

:wtf: I know kara-karakusa is cool because experienced players mention it a lot. I just don’t know why because I’m not experienced enough. I was kind of hoping someone could explain…


#15

increasing Makoto’s throw range is angry and hurtful

Its pretty much the same as any other Kara move, increased range leads to increased options for you and decreased options for your opponent.

Its just that in this case increasing the places where you can use Karakusa makes Makoto really dangerous simply because eating a Karakusa can mean the end of the match for your opponent.


#16

It wasn’t that it was bad, it was that everything you said is very very basic stuff that makes you sound like someone just starting out. So instead of giving advice on a mid level topic like this I’d just steer clear of making any kind of declarative statements with regards to strategy and stick to asking questions and getting better. I hope that didn’t sound as preachy as I’m afraid it did.

I don’t remember the last time I saw anyone whiff a karakusa in a match because the LK kara hit, and that’s because people know when and where to do it. In those situations where it lets you land a karakusa where you normally couldn’t, being able to do it really adds a substantial chunk to your offensive capabilities.


#17

I am just starting out. :wgrin:

Fair enough! I posted here because it seemed like Overworld would benefit from basic advice on playing Makoto, but maybe I was wrong.

Yeah, I think I just need to study its set-ups and try to memorize the optimal distance for use. Also, I really need to pick up a damn stick… Makoto’s kara-moves are so tough to do on a pad.


#18

Makoto walks slow. Shes got okay defense, but no wake up moves. So don’t be pressured into a corner. And you can’t walk with Makoto because her walk is slow as heck. So what you should be doing is dashing all the time and mixing up the game.