Getting mainstream back into 2D fighters


#1

Ever since SFII debuted back in da day (I existed then ahem but wasn’t part of the scene) Figthers have gotten more complicated. Of course, this is a natural evolution as the main companies that developed these fighters (SNK and Capcom I would suppose) are appealing to a crowd that has naturally grown with each chapter in whatever series they are releasing.

Following this strategy though, alienates gamers who come into the scene farther down the line. New players now have to memorize sixty hit combos, kara throws, obscure attack motions, what have you.

I’ve had this idea for awhile, but it’s never blossomed because … well, I’m just one dude. I’m not proposing anything, this is just that; an idea. I haven’t thought much about getting mainstream players into 2D fighters, it just happens that this idea itself collides well with what it would take to get a large slew of people interested in 2D fighters again.

It’s really simple. An online 2D Fighting Game for the PC. Yes indeed. Now instead of having to advertize to one specific country; the game is open to the entire world. Even if it’s not a smash hit, even the curious will check it out. The bonuses of it being for PC and online are obvious. Again, access to the game by the whole world. And updates. Imagine a 2D fighter that is updated constantly with fixes, new characters, new levels, new moves and so on. And very frequently. And since it’s an online game, you have your scoreboards and character rankings. Who will be the best in the world? It’s pretty exiciting, as far as competitive 2D fighters go.

The fun doesn’t end there. We’re not talking about a technical jazz fest that is CvS2 with enough options to make a child’s head explode; the game would be geared towards getting the mainstream casual gamers started but would be playable by serious contenders as well (since they are the ones that have kept this genre afloat, myself included). Easy to play but difficult to master so to speak. Not 3S type standards though.

Here would be the layout. 2 kicks and 2 punches. Light link into hard attacks (lp xx hp). All characters have this ability (chain attacks). A special move can be connected after a chain. A super can be connected after a special move. All special move motions are qcf/qcb. No half circles, full circles, charge garbage, front to back to up to china etc. motions. Supers are the SAME but with two kicks or punches. So a nice combo would go like this. lp, hp, qcf+p, qcf+2p. Crouching normals can be linked too, standing to crouching normals as well, st. lp xx cr. hp for some mind games for example.

It doesn’t stop there though. Jumps are short. No ten foot in the air type jumps. Short hops. And all airbourne normals cause knockback. None of this jump-in combo garbage. Air attacks are overhead and they cause knockback. Simple. Effective, what one would expected from a jumping attack.

I should mention too. No throws. Yes sir. NO THROWS. Newbies rejoice. No more frusteration and turtling to your hearts’ content. Command throws are still in. And boy are they ever qcf/qcb for you command grab lovers. No links for command grabs though, that’s unfair.

And that’s pretty much it. Think about it. An online 2D fighter that is really easy to play (super fun … at least it sounds fun) and because it’s online it’s accessed by everyone. Seasoned players would feel at home and new players wouldn’t feel overwhelmed. We’d get lots of players that play the game once, and actually stay for more.

Please comment on this. Cause I seriously think it’s a good idea. Unfortunately, it’s just that. An idea.

As a note, I would feel there might be too much turtling. But I think the short jumps with knockdown and overhead properties would eliviate much of that. Another problem might be expert players realizing the value of command throw characters :stuck_out_tongue:

Here are some ideas for graphical style;

SamSho/SNK (kinda) style 16 colors —

http://www.gazler.com/users/sonicreaper//anna11.gif


http://www.gazler.com/users/sonicreaper//gwen5cduck2.gif

SFIII style 32 colors —

http://www.gazler.com/users/sonicreaper//sm2.gif

Don’t think because it’s a simple game to play that the roster will be a shoto-wannabe fest either :wink:


#2

sounds snk-like…email that to snkplaymore :>
As for getting the scene bigger, there needs to be new games that hold people’s interest, online, and videos of matches/combos/parrys, etc.


#3

Well you just said there need to be more online games. So yeah, I mean a computer today basically=necessity. And if it’s a 2D fighter, it’s not exactly taxing on the graphics card so anyone can play it, world wide.

I don’t think combo/match videos mean anything to casual players since they’ll

  1. Not know what’s going on anyway
  2. Not care to look up combo/match videos

#4

You seem to be talking about Garou: Mark of the Wolves with no throws (and minus Tizoc) LOL! :devil:


#5

2D can always survive…if they go to polygons. Casuals don’t know the difference between 3D movement and 2D anyway. They just see 3D and call it 3D. And they mash all the same. It’d be a good way to disguise it. I mean look at MKDA and MKD. You could argue the side step makes it 3D but it really isn’t thanks to it’s crappy universal tracking. For the most part they’re 2D games dressed up in 3D. Crappy ones at that.


#6

Wanna know something? The PS2 is mainstream. If Capcom would have made there 2-D fighters online for it we there would be a huge online community for it. So it’s all Capcom’s fault. There so fucking stupied. They had chances to increase the 2-D fighter fan base but they blew it. Fucking dumbasses. :mad:


#7

stupid idea


#8

It’s not a bad idea, but it’s inherently flawed, because the reason the general public and casual gamers don’t get into 2D fighters is simply because there’s a negative stigma associated to it, and making it online worsens it.

People think that the only people who still play 2D fighters are masters at the game, and they have no chance of winning. For the casual crowd to get into a competitive game, it has to be something that doesn’t require a shitload of training to be competitive, while still looking spectacularly good and being easy to play. Casual gamers can’t do QCF motions for the life of them, and they can’t be bothered to learn them, since it’s “too hard”. This is why 3D fighters have a bit more accessibility to them; there’s QCF motions, but they are not mandatory to winning in the public’s eye. Plus mashing in a 3D game is infinitely more rewarding because it actually does something, while in most 2D fighters you get absolutely nothing (except MvC2… well, the whole VS series).

A lot of people where I work are more than willing to play Tekken 5, or SC2 or even VF4 (they had tourneys before I worked there! and they stopped playing… :frowning: ) because they feel everyone’s equal. Of course, when I actually brought SC2 and tried to get people to play it, they watched me play ONCE then stopped caring because to them I was unbeatable. There’s a really bad thing about games right now that’s defined by the “chance to win”. If you have zero chance of winning, you don’t try the game. It’s as simple as that; only the real hardcore will play and play when they lose.


#9

If you’re serious about this, there are three features that you absolutely must have:

A) Replay recording: The ability to record the match(s) to an input file. Thus, allowing players to easily record and share recorded matches or combos/glitches.

B) Replay conversion: The ability to convert replays into media files. It’s definitely more work, but DEFINITELY WORTH IT.

C) Server hosting: The ability for players to set up their own dedicated servers for the game. This allows people to set up certain settings/options for the game (see below), and players can join in, without having to rely on any big company to do the hosting.

Combo videos and match videos DO promote interest in games. It allows players to see the game without having to buy it (or download it, heh) first. And it also allows players to learn how to play it on a basic level.

Example: Some random person sees a random video that includes one of the characters, and they think “Shit, that game looks tight, and I want to learn that character”. Well, now they have an interest in the game, and they have something to learn from.

Also, the “No throws” thing has been debated on SRK many, many times. All signs lead to throws being a very very good thing.

I recommend having the options being completely customizable, somewhat like they are in the home verison of 3rd Strike. This way, whoever runs the server can decide the server-side setup for the game. Many servers will then have varying options set up, and certain servers will then become more popular with players. Eventually, the most popular settings will prevail, and the majority of the servers will conform. That way, you don’t have to force the gaming community to play the game the way they think they should, but rather, you’re allowing the community to evolve slowly in a somewhat democratic method. And this is not just theory, it’s worked for years in other online competitive games.

PS. Don’t listen to the haters, EVER. If you think it’s worth it, then do it. Lots and lots and lots of really shitty games make it to the market. Who knows, maybe your game will be fucking great, why shouldn’t it be given the same chance.


#10

making any fighter for the pc feels like automatic failure. i beta tested for one must fall battlegrounds, a 16 player 3d fighter and since it was for pc, it was marketed for the fps crowd.

game went to like 3 dollars after two months.

however, i think having something styled like gunbound, with major servers, items to buy (everyone likes to customize) and support for multiple players (ive played 4 player 2d, now i want to see 6 or maybe 8) will attract something, even if its just koreans.


#11

You know most (casual)gamers come to my house and say the following… Choose Three:

A) You still play Dreamcast!
B) You have a Dreamcast!
C) Street Fighter… That shit is old.
D) 2D games suck
E) What 3D games you have.
F) You have a SATURN!?!?!!
G) I only play Tekken
H) Tekken(Replace this with any 3D fighter names… Except VF which is too hardcore for mostly everyone) is a great game/series. Why do you play these ancient 2D games?
I) I havent played Street Fighter in 10 years…
J) Do you have the 3D street fighter…

Anyway my point is Street Fighter is immediately associated with the past… Not surprisingly since the last actual Street Fighter game(SF 3:3S) is now what 5+ years old? Even CVS2 is 3 years old now. The tournament scene biggest game MVC2 is in the same ball park of age(5 years?).

Your ideas are decent I think the biggest problem is that 2D is totally seen as passe due to the way 3D games were marketed initially as the “Future of ALL gaming”. Online play and Flashy combo or tournament videos only preach to the choir those who are already interested in 2D gaming. The only way I see this changing is Cel Shaded fighters or a Ultra High rez 2D fighter that breaks new ground. Which would be incredibly hard to pull off not to mention there are very few 2D artist working for gaming companies the same way there are very few 2D artist at disney or any animation movie house… Everyone has moved on already. I am all for 2D being around forever but it just doesnt seem to be where the money is and it is unlikely the market will take the big risks to insure 2D’s future when 3D has all the momentum and all of the same game genres doing well now…

Oh and the concept dumbing the engine down for the n00bs will just piss off some of the better players who will complain the game is too scrub friendly… Of course they will still scrape said scrubs everyday… Except there wont be that many… Making the game simplier wont increase the audience alone… And dumbing it down may limit your access to the hardcore audience leaving you with nothing at all.

Online play on PS2 is a joke… Since PS2 didnt ship with a network card the install base is questionable at best so just because they are more PS2’s out there doesnt mean there would have been a bigger online player base since a small fraction of the total PS2 users have the damn add-on. Where as every Xbox user has the option… This was the lesson learned from the Sega CD/32X era… Add-ons dont sell well enough to gaurantee sales of software for the add-ons in question and in the case of the 32X… US only add ons are suicide…

And an Online PC fighter wont gain mass acceptance because the PC gamers are not the same as Console gamers which arent necessarily even into 2D fighters anymore which was the initial problem.

Storm


#12

Many of you said that 2D on the PC was a bad idea since PC gamers are already into heavy 3D graphics, and from what I gather, mostly into FPS and possibly MMORPGs. That isn’t what it’s all about (bar the MMORPGs, but we’ll forget those for now). FPS shooters are the competitive scene for online PC players. They play them to blow everyone else up and be king of the hill in the respective game. I don’t think PC gamers think about the graphics beyond “the more polys/the shinier, the better”. The graphics are a given; PC gamers would expect some pretty intense 3D graphics from any FPS. But the reason they play the game is the competitive scene; and to be the best.

This is why I thought it would translate well into a fighter. The reason it would be 2D would be to keep the genre alive (the point of all of this). So while some 3D novelty (cell shading or otherwise) may look fine, it defeats the purpose and basically kicks the idea in the junk. How can we make 2D more popular to the main stream if the game in question that’s trying to do that is 3D??? See my point?

Not necessarily. Actually, Capcom is running servers for Resident Evil Outbreak. Other companies have squat. It’s mostly Sony’s fault for having NO dedicated servers. Microsoft has a HUGE server system going for Xbox live; this is what Sony should have done, but it’s too late right now. With a PC, it’s guaranteed that a large majority of people already have internet and the internet on PC itself is the most stable and reliable of online play areas. I don’t think consoles are the answer since there’s already a specific quality expected of console graphics. As SCEA already noted; they don’t want 2D games on their PS2. This limitation doesn’t exist with the PC, as MMORPGs are an example of successful 2D games, online and on the PC.

Thanks for contributing. You could have at least told me why you didn’t care the idea. Right now, you’re just a one-line asshat.

The online scene isn’t as black and white as the console scene is. Because the internet reaches out to players ACCROSS THE WORLD, you have a potential pool of billions of players. So what if one just happens to be a graphics whore and doesn’t play the game? It happens on consoles too. Look at it this way; at the least mimimum, members from this community might play the game. Through word of mouth, others would become interested. Then there are those who just happen to stumble upon it and decide to give it a try.

I don’t think casual gamers are aliented by the games themselves, but the people who play the games are another reason casual players don’t like the scene. As any newb who has come onto these forums with a question that has been answered a billion times would attest; there are some pretty short fused/down right nasty people out there and they happen to be fans of 2D fighters. For people to become interested in the game, it would need to be advertised as something along the lines of; easy to play, rewarding, competitive, and fun with a great community. It’s inevitable that we’d get the occasional anti-social hermit; but for the casual gamers to get into the game, they have to see others be enthusiastic about the game and enthusiastic about getting others into the game as well.

I’ve been thinking about options and customization. I still don’t care for throws, but from an idealistic standpoint; the game would be online and could be updated with patches. So if the majority of players were moaning about there being no throws, they could be added in. If the game evolves without throws, then the idea would have been a success regardless. It’s about learning to adapt, I think people use throws as a crutch sometimes. Sure, turtling may be seen as cheap, and having no throws may seem to work against the aggressive players; but there are still hi/low mix-ups and overhead attacks. If all else fails, there are still command throw characters. So really, like in all good fighters, there are still options. It’s not like the fighting equivalent of pong, where you just do ONE thing, back and forth. It’s not brain dead easy, but it is streamlined (move motions for example) for ease of play. If throws were to exist, they would ONLY be two button. One button throws make my head hurt.

A 2D fighter for the PC is automatic failure depending on how you advertise it. If you advertised it to the FPS crowd, what exactly do you expect? That’s bad advertisement (and to the wrong crowd).

I think there is a difference between casual gamers and total noobies. Noobies will run in there, use only one button to attack and generally not move around much or block. Casual gamers KNOW what to press, how to move, how to block. So casual gamers would welcome the streamlined command inputs I would think. Newbies are always newbies. They would need to learn, there’s no way around it. This applies to ANY game. But the game engine as it is, it’s not terribly hard to learn at all. I can’t imagine someone not completely “getting” one character in this game after around an hour or so (minus special instances/combos). As I see it; the firs who would play the game would be people from communities such as Shoryuken. That alone is a good chunk. We’re talking about rising 2D fighters OUT of the grave. This doesn’t mean an explosion of a billion fans right away. It can be a gradual process. The main attraction, like all good fighters, is the competition and ranking. Just think of how Kaillera works. People go on there for a fun competitive match. Days on Kaillera were too good for me. I had alot of fun with that, and they were just “simple” 2D fighters.

As I said before, the graphics are expected in today’s gaming industry, but in most cases with PC gamers, it’s not the onlt reason the game is played. It still boils down to gameplay and the competitive edge for FPS fans, for example.


#13

The biggest problem in your logic is that you want to attract new players to the genre without alienating the hardcore regulars.

Believe me, it’s near impossible to do that with a game that has a theme as tight as a 2D fighter. Casual gamers usually don’t mind simplistic graphics, but then again if they play the game and get their asses handed to them on the first try, you can be 100% certain they won’t come back.

Believe me, I have a lot of experience designing games for the casual market (sigh…) and it’s a rather complicated market to design for. I always do my best to make sure that gamers will enjoy the game as well, but it’s incredibly difficult. I did that for JAMDAT Bowling 3D by integrating the practice mode, where players could actually learn how to bowl correctly; I am certain that most casual players won’t even glance at the practice mode, but more “normal” gamers will. At least it gives them something to do besides bowl a few frames once in a while.


#14

It’s pretty damn obvious why this is a stupid idea.


#15

It is a stupid idea. First of all, what makes you think dumbing a game down will make it more accessible? Why would players be playing shit like World of Warcraft, Counter Strike and other games? They could be playing Doom, Hexen, and some other old shit cause it’s simple as hell. People don’t WANT simplicity. People can create simplicity out of a complex game. Look at CVS2. Although the possibilities are endless, some people just pick Cammy and just press fierce and rh. Having said that, a key to success is ACCESSIBILITY. I took a game design course once, and although it didn’t teach me much, I did remember a few things. One is that the sign of a great game is if it’s relatively easy to learn, and hard to master. Street Fighter is hard to learn, and hard to master. THIS is why it is not picking up in popularity. Also, you guys forget that Street Fighter has some of the MOST HARDCORE people you will ever meet. Once a noob plays a few of these guys, their egos will be obliterated. Hence making them never play the game again. I dunno, I’m going off on a tangent now, but your idea won’t succeed trust me. If you want to make a great fighting game, then do it, but don’t sacrifice what Street Fighter means just so other people can join in the fun, cause then it won’t be Street Fighter anymore.


#16

The whole 3D obsession here in the U.S. really does suffocate any chance for 2D fighting games to take root outside of the already established fighting game community we have here. We love our 2D fighters, so of course we’re afraid that they’re going to fade away into memory. So, in a lot of our minds, the best way for the genre to survive is to get the casuals into the game. It certainly would help in terms of making Capcom and the other companies money, but the sacrifices that would be made to ensure a “casual” fanbase would completely kill everything we love about fighting games, IMO.

I haven’t ever been to Japan, and I won’t even begin to pretend like I know whats going on over there, but it’s my understanding that they take 2D fighters a HELL of a lot more seriously than we do. These games do come out of Japan, so my question is, is there enough of a “mainstream” following over there for newer innovations to be made? I’ve been hoping that their appreciation for the genre eclipses our neglect of it enough to where Capcom might actually stand to gain from sticking with SF.

But hell, putting hope in Capcom is like staying up late waiting for Santa when you’re a little kid. :sad:


#17

I would say 2D is generally more accepted in Japan than it is here. I’m not exactly sure why, however. It might have to do with adult manga readers who are not immediately associating 2D with “kiddie” stuff. It also is to note that 2D animation, technique and style is much more “advanced” in Japan than it is anywhere else in the world. They have perfected their art to an extreme (SF3 and Melty Blood come to mind) where it can look leaps and bounds above 3D animation, since while being as fluid as 3D, looks MUCH better. Here, people only want 3D, because it’s “cool”. To them, 2D is ancient, crappy and ugly. They remember 2D as being SNES-era, and while they loved their SNESes, they feel it’s time to move on to better stuff. For some reason they also think pushing more polygons means a better game…

It seriously pisses me off to see the non-JP market being so fucked up. The mainstream are graphic whores, nothing more.


#18

Well if an idea is this ill received in its infancy it’s time to pull the plug. You guys opened my eyes pretty much; I’m giving up on this project (which is was just a hobby of mine; not anymore though).

Thanks to those who contributed to the discussion in a serious way (Caliagent can jump up his own ass for all I care).


#19

Honestly all your idea did was make 2d fighters worst, lol. please just reread your post, just the plain fact of eliminating throws is idiotic. Leave the production of 2d fighters to reputable companies who know what they’re doing.


#20

Very good point. They should just carry on releasing 2D games with polygons and be done with it. However, most of the poeple on this board are inverse-graphics whores who reject games just because they aren’t done with sprites. So it’s a no-go area all round, really. The very fans of the genre are stopping it from moving forwards.

Well, yeah, it’s their failt for not releasing SF3 on the biggest console, but then again, it’s not really their fault: they would say (with good reason) that it was a big financial risk to release oldschool games nowadays.

I think there are approximately 3 times as many PS2s online as XBoxes. Hell, there are more people playing Socom online than all the XBox Live players combined.