Gouken Vortex... YEAH, I said it

gouken

#1

Ok, so as an avid akuma player as well , and after watching the newest Loltima vortex tutorials for a thorough,colorful, and inspired visual descreption of Akuma’s option’s after untechable knockdown, I feel a similar gouken institution must be spawned. Also, THERE’S NO DAMN THREAD ABOUT HIS RESETS!

To start… check out the theory of akumas vortex…
[media=youtube]vTJ5srcjWiA[/media]
follow to pt2 for complete idea.

So… with this concept in mind…

Given gouken’s ability to set up resets so easily, having arguably the game’s highest reset-risk/reward ratio for landing combos after reset, gain smart spacing after knockdown(tech or untechable),mix ups that lead to block strings, and/or tick throws (which lead to ultra :woot:) , all grant him a vortex like metagame when in the following positions to execute:

[LIST]
[]Back Throw(s) or Air resets
[
]EXPalm(s)
[]Corner Smash
[
]Demon flip(s)
[/LIST]
Each one leads to another as well, which makes this a cohesive metagame, and why I am proposing a formal development of the system.

*note: these come up more frequently than a chance for akuma to land an untechable knockdown do and are “safer”…read on and see why
Also, even though gouken can’t *really *link lk’s and lp’s into specials, these aforementioned scenarios work on ALL characters, unlike akuma’s sweep after lk tetsu, and require less risky positioning on your part to pull off. They also come up during combos, on block strings, in footsie game, and at distances all over the stage. VIEW GOUKENS VORTEX AS ACTIVE DURING LANDING THESE EVENTS AND AFTER KNOCKDOWN. *

To start, I just want to give some visual support for my theory here in each section…

General Reset(s) Potential: [media=youtube]Hr3uoPzrQD0[/media]
(this will suffice for the back throw column as it most easily sets up resets. I just am listing specific channels with the above list to get to resets)

In this video alone one could spend a day calculating frame advantage, risk reward, and damage potential for each series of resets, but the overall gist of the thing is what I’m trying to show.

Here we see a LOT of the options given to gouken off a back throw, AA tatsu, ex palm, and corner tactics. Now, while these options aren’t guaranteed combos, or safe iterations of block strings(like Sagats damn block strings with lk.TK’s ), they force opponents to guess which way to block, guess a tech, and bait unsafe moves(srk’s) due to the aerial “bobbling” and cross up/ ambiguous jump ins after and during resets.
These are exactly the same strats employed by smart Akuma players after knockdown and during vortex mix ups, only we have to think of these options when pressing the pace, after back throws, after EXPalms, and also after sweeps.
I for one love this about gouken most, and believe that his full potential in reset game isn’t even close to being realized. I played Killakelly other day and the dude showed me shit after EXPalm that made my nuts drop again.

Bottom Line:Gouken’s resets are his most important, and presently underused/underrated tools for putting himself into winning positions. His combos do massive damage for the set up hassle, he has akuma’s mix-up game with demon flips(air perry beating Akuma’s palm in matchups like balrog ,where you can absorb a headbutt and completely turn the match around, instead of trade like akuma and get your ass wailed on), and just like Akuma’s vortex, his reset set ups keep the other player guessing in all aspects of play, thus adding to your advantage in mindgame, spacing, bar management, and tempo.

THIS ENVIRONMENT IS CRUCIAL TO SET UP, AND DETERMINES WHO BEATS WHO, NOT JUST WHO WINS OR LOSES(there is a difference).

Corner smash: [media=youtube]it_zskOLOPs[/media]
[media=youtube]2iAEcjZ_9YU[/media]

Just watch the ryu match and read the annotations. Siyko provides some very enlightened commentary on gouken’s corner pressure, and although he doesn’t do combo video like exhibition of goukens corner game, he shows you how easy it is to get to this place in high level play. This section of his metagame relies heavily on poke use, fireball zoning, and footises. Given goukens much discussed sluggish light pokes, here it is important more so to rely on fk’s, cr.mp’s, and s.mk’s to keep the opponent in the corner and lead to knockdowns and reset places.

Bottom line: Gouken’s powerful, dudley-esque corner tactics coupled with resets and the later discussed demon flip options give him vortex like set ups to lead to combos, resets,baited counters or unsafe attacks/jump ins, forming an overall meta-guessing game.

**
ExPalm and Demon Flip(s):** Here we get into gouken’s BnB offensive game.
Gouken can provide avenues to
[LIST]
[]tick throws
[
]untechable knockdowns(air throws)
[*]block strings for spacing(getting opponent into corner) and option combos (resets too)
[/LIST]
using his demon flips in a simililar manner as Akuma. Yet again, his DF options are better IMO due to all of the above pushing the opponent in the corner, setting up baited unsafe moves and punishing with air perry or konggoshin or block. Also, when doing demon flip resets( DF dive kick–>block string or FP–>DF again) his dive kick has more priority than Akuma’s, EX has invincible frames, and nets you a perry option. After an air throw dash n.jmp. fp>fp>throw,parry, fireball, sweep land him combo opportunities and blk string pressure. This section of his meta game should be employed like Akuma uses his cross up tetsu section of the vortex where it leads Gouken to an untechable knockdown(via sweep or throw or air throw)

  1. stop and re-space and set up another knockdown
  2. get the hit and follow with whatever may lead to EXPalm, tick throw, or corner tactics/combos
  3. knockback into corner and start corner smash.
  4. start a demon flip mix up routine to get to above three places, or another section of the vortex.
    Thusly, landing an EXPalm in this portion of his metagame mixup is paramount, and should be viewed like Akuma’s options after links–>hadoukenFADC–>links/knockdown.

So. then after EXpalm either knock em back in corner and pressure/go for combo, or continue mixup game with a FDash j.FP to bait attacks, attempt tick throw, or attempt counter. These are better than shenanigans(although seem so on surface) given their ability to lead to the other sections of Gouken’s vortex sections above.(see, told you it’s all connected… think how his specials all knockdown into corner :smile:)
:
:
V
/* ExPalm leads to combo and corner smash, reset after EXPalm leads to DF mixup and back throws/more resets*/

**Bottom Line:**This offensive metagame when employed wisely sets up a very formidable offensive environment for gouken, and a general lack of options for almost any character gouken matches up against.

Final Thoughts:

Although my 4 sections of his metagame aren’t obvious parts of a Vortex with present opinion of Gouken and status quo gouken play (i.e.Sanford Kelly’s gouken sucks) I believe that when the Gouken zeitgeist starts to change with further high level console play of SF4(and hopefully SSF4) these strategies will be more accepted and Gouken’s place as a truly offensive character will be realized. He’s kinda zen like that… he’s offensive even when he’s defensive(he’s setting up entrance into this kind of vortex metagame)

Now, these strats might sounds like general things to do with all characters, where these 4 sections are different and truly tailor themselves to only gouken is there ease of entrance. Gouken just kinda falls into these positions as you play him, and smart thinkign can land you to the payoff portions of his metagame just like in Akuma’s vortex.

Bear this in mind as well… as lauded as the vortex is for akuma, it still isn’t anything close to assured or safe, or self sustaining.,
A smart player will know half the set ups you’re attempting and the proper punishes, and due to akuma’s low health and technicality in execution of the more advanced portions of the vortex, using the hell out of the vortex isn’t that viable in high level play.
Gouken on the other hand has the same unassured set up disadvantage as Akuma in his “vortex” metagame, but has higher stun, health, and damage potential for less bar than akuma in his version of the Vortex . These facts coupled with his Kongoshin and a counter hitting ultra mean that… YEAH, GOUKEN PLAYERS NEED TO ESTABLISHE A SEMBLANCE OF A VORTEX FOR HIM, NOT JUST KINDA NAME SHIT YOU DO ONCE AND AWHILE WHEN YOU’RE IN THESE SCENARIOS…

Also, his shit actually combos to ULTRA…Dig that 'till i die. Suck it Akuma.

So, let’s actually sit down here and compile all the tricks of the trade we know, get some data to support it, formulate a theorem for what the possible series of set ups should be based on data and field experience, then actually name this thing and start using it…*Because I’m so goddamned tired of everyone waiting to call a given console character good until JWONG(more like JDONG, Am i rite?!) uses em.[fucking prima strat. guide said Fei DONG was A tier before the game came out]
*
I’ll start by using my hastily formed arenas of his metagame. Let’s iron out the details and see if we can’t get a concrete thing like Akuma’s vortex. The thing I really want input on is when in X section, what Y section to set up and/or do. Also, I didnt mention where his back dash, fp hadouken–> mp or fp palm fit into the equation…

Props to Siyko, phunkism, and KillyKelly.

Oh, and for sticking with a non A rank char… Mike Ross, I BELIEVE …blah blah blah.


#2

Common tricks I use:

Back Throw > j. MP (single hit) > c.HP > Demon Flip Dive Kick (reset) > s.HP > Ex Palm > HTatsu.

If Demon Flip Dive Kick is blocked, do 1 or 2 c.LP > Forward Throw or Back Throw to start over.

If they’re in the corner, s.HP or c.HP > EX palm > HP Hado > LP Hado > c.HP > Demon Flip Dive Kick (reset) > continue same pattern if not crossed up | If crossed up, s.HP > Ex Palm > HTatsu. If enemy has crazy priority and lag is present… c.LP > c.LP > c.LP > s.LK > c.LK.

unfortunately, reversals break air parry for some stupid ass reason when doing the back throw reset so i can’t incorporate that into my back throw game when doing the demon flip when i know ryu or sagat is going to uppercut me out of my demon flip dive kick. So sometimes i just do j.MP > EX Tatsu, to ensure all of my ex tatsu hit. Not sure what would be a better option here.

Anyways, I guess here is my contribution for “tricks of the trade”. Got a video in the gouken vol. 2 video thread where you can see me do some variations of this stuff (2nd fight, 1st fight i suck).

I try not to combo stuff into ultra unless I know i’ll most likely win with using it as the damage scaling is huge coming off of a multi-hit combo. Reason why you don’t see daigo doing crazy fadc stuff in the corner and ending with an ultra because you’ll get more damage just doing a shoryu > ultra.


#3

Yeah the air parry will get armor broke on a counter hit, so a lk DF from a cr.fp only works on normal AA, not common special move AAs.


#4

vortex tool: matchup specific overhead air tatsu… and cross up air tatsu overhead… that can’t be ducked after you block the first hit, so you force 125+ chip damage on the other guy or you get a solid 100 damage & knockdown. Vulnerable to reversals of course, is really tough to pull off, and has a lot of cooldown on it in case the other guy knows how to block it/survives it. Stuffs jump outs real hard, basically the other guy’s only option is to reversal or block standing.

You have to time it to catch them in their wakeup frames where they are crouch blocking, but have a full standing hitbox.

Works on tall characters as far as I know, but I don’t know the details :lol:


#5

My main fear with using resets is that it seems to easy to be punished by SRK by the SRK mashers. What are everyone’s experiences with that?


#6

It’s common. A reset has a lot of inherent risk.

When you encounter situations where your resets are getting legitimately or otherwise SRK’d, use your reset setups as bait for a BIGGER punish. Example:

Back toss > j.mp > c.fp > lk flip > grab

Nice reset, good damage, confusing. Now, say your opponent is a masher, or, they know your reset strategy (sparring partners are notorious for this). You now need to mix it up. Do this:

Back toss > j.mp > c.fp > WAIT . . . punish.

Now you’ve got 'em by the balls. How? You’ve just invoked confusion and baited them and they’re sailing off with their SRK or maybe their c.hp is now in recovery frames and you get a free sweep/untechable knockdown. Next time you reset, they’re going to have to think twice and potentially gamble. You can now either complete your reset in its entirety, OR:

Back toss > j.mp > c.fp > WAIT . . . (watch them wait) . . . walk up - backtoss/f.mp/sweep/forward throw, etc

These are the seeds of mindgames.

Of course, this likely won’t work as well on idiots who mash all day and don’t pay attention to what is happening. Don’t worry about these retards - you usually need to play it safe against morons like this regardless. Against calculated players who actually think about what they are doing however, the above options begin to take on dimensions of head-fuckery sure to drive people nuts and invoke fear in how they respond to your setups.

Again, resets can be gambles but they can also double your odds and net you serious damage.


#7

Don’t really have much to add to this interesting read. I will comment on calling JWong JDong. I know it’s a joke, but Jaedong is currently the more-or-less undisputed #1 Starcraft player in South Korea. He’s known as a Starcraft God basically. So anyway, while I’m sure it was unintended, instead of insulting Justin, you compared him to probably the highest paid e-Sports athlete in the world.


#8

Gouken doesn’t have a “vortex,” simple as that. Or at least not one he can’t just get SRK’d out of 99 percent of the time.

(Man, I really hate even calling it that, along with all the lameass names for combos the Akuma players come up with.)

If you understand anything about the whole Vortex strategy with Akuma, then you know that is absolutely NOT about resets, so comparing reset-heavy Gouken tricks with Akuma’s “vortex” is ridiculous.

Gouken doesn’t have option-selects, instant recovery demon flip, good safe-jump options, cross-up tatsu… the list goes on and on.

If air-parry couldn’t be armor-broken, we might have a different story.

Gouken’s resets are just not effective or safe enough to be used in high level play. The only thing you can do that will actually confuse an expert player is either very expensive (FADC cross-unders, etc) or corner-specific, and even then, still not safe enough. Gamogo suggested doing reset then not doing the demon flip to see if you can bait SRK, but this too is pointless… good players are only going to throw the SRK on reaction in this situation, it’s not exactly a tight reversal window.


#9

Unfortunately, this is mostly correct - but I think the resets are slightly more effective than you say :slight_smile:


#10

Don’t abuse them, only use them occasionally and you should be fine.


#11

A few points on this…

-Im not saying akumas vortex is about resets. I am not saying goukens is entirely about resets, his emphasis on resets in a theoretical vortex is to compensate for a lack of solid option combos.

-I use the vortex all the time. All the vortex is, is a gay ass name they give to a very pointed set of wake up series that akuma players have universally agreed as effective. Are they assured? of course not.

Here’s where I talk shit about the vortex… read if you want, its off topic from your quote but gives insight into my opinions…


Akuma’s vortex “branches” have very long instances that are victim to srk mashers as well, even more badly punsihable given that half of the vortex options begin with jump ins, cross up tetsus, and other shenanigans that lead to combos. The glut of the vortex is just AKuma’s BnB’s, what’s really important is how you get there… and honestly almost all of the ways to get to that point on any of the vortex branches start with ballsy, unsafe moves, so if you’re into that(which i am) then fuck, play akuma, but I believe that Gouken has better ways options in the same beginning of the"branches" than akuma(read below for more)

The only thing that makes the vortex viable is untechable knockdowns, but again, even that is folly due to situations where you don’t knockdown your opponent in a favorable range( no one can say they have the foresight to see EXACTLY where akumas shit is going to untech knockdown someone when you land an attack that does it) and really its fucking hard to land consistent untech knockdowns at high level play, let alone follow it up with a successful lead in to a series of Akumas vortex.

Point im making is that akumas vortex is unsafe. It’s a cool idea but honestly it’s overglorified commonsense wake up game for upper level play, with some guide on the best options to choose on akumas option select combos given what you started with and how you’re setting up untech knockdowns.

I am merely proposing that gouken has a similar metagame, and honestly his setups into his Bnb’, resets, and tick throws net him more damage than akuma, and the set ups are safer in comparison due to his low health, technicality of akumas set ups and follow through(shit even daigo fuckign drops FADC’s sometimes), and akumas set ups being more susceptible to bullshit mashing, random srks, and just plain ol bullshit panic moves[also in part 'cause of his low health]. (like, watch daigo mash thru sanford kellys combos and block strings on the money matches at eventhubs.com… its fucking scrubby as fuck)


The vortex is about your tools on your opponents wake up( specifically an untech knockdown), and well aside from akumas fist cancel DF, gouken and akuma have very similar options, and honestly in a tourney situation I’d like to bank on a character with more fireball options, more health, and a combo-able ULTRA, wouldnt you? 'cause every A rank character who commonly places in tourneys have this…

Here’s where I get pointed and provide some evidence and rebuttal…

“Gouken doesn’t have option-selects, instant recovery demon flip, good safe-jump options, cross-up tatsu… the list goes on and on.”

[LIST]
[]instant recov DF:
his grab can be used in place of palm cancel, and while much slower and not as effective, a polar strat. may be employed with respect to akumas palm cancel with something like
-DFGrabcancel>perry or wait>punish or blkstring>tickthrow or bckdsh>sweep or bckdsh… you get the picture? They’re all the same options as akumas, except his jabs and shorts arent as fast, but he makes up for it with a perry and a better back dash and more damage potential on punish…
Oh, and you can midngame the guy into thinking youll cancel, but actually air perry…which only breaks on a counter hit(also no a rank has a armor breaking anti air special that will actually hit a proper air perry)
**
[
]Option select:**
(read: options during combo, not LITERAL option selects)
So, I’ll be real talk here… he doesn’t have flashy ass options, or as many as akuma, but really, where akuma gains diversity in his BnB’s from is in his lk&lp usage at first, then mp&mk later in the link, and finally on srk/sweep option
Gouken has cr.lp>tetsu(which is FADC’able), fp/cr.fp(really fast start up)>EXPalm, hdknFADC>fp…etc… and again you see similar branches as in Akuma’s vortex.

so, he does have option select, because all of his specials knockdown…not untechable, but they knockdown… and he has several branches to follow given a jab or short hit, and his BnB’s do more damage for the number of hits once combo’d , and so when you couple that with the scaling resetting possibilities of his resets which are smack dab in the middle of his combos and in his DF mixup… I’d say this way of looking at him having “option select combos” is valid.

[*]cross up tetsu:
eh, yeah, but again, they’re fucking lame, try using goukens ambiguous j.FP instead(it’s like kens). He does have one against big characters, but only use the ex so you can float closer to him to set up more vortex like pressure

[*] jump in options:
His fp is better than akumas, and all the other normals are the same if not better than akumas jumping normal options, especially on a quick backjump(fp and fk fucking snuff out everything,. have great range, and wacky timing)
[/LIST]

I’ll stop there. So, with the options gouken has, it sets up a more defensive version of a Vortex, but with the guts of the offense in place. So the only differing in on cross up tatsus and an option for an untech knockdown in the middle of a BnB that is consistent… well, in high level play, I really dont think that the majority of the time you’re going to follow up that with some ballsy shit, like half of the vortex anyway, so wouldn’t you rather bank on some defensive options and mindgames? I would, and gouken’s got em in spades.

Notes: Also, look I understand how important cancel df’s are, and cross up tetsu, but im speaking here on practical, cool headed competitive play, terms, and honestly the shit akuma does to get offensive on someone is mighty unsafe against godly reaction timed, cool headed, balanced game play minded players…who also have a char with more health and linkable ultras hahaha… you start to see why a vortex with gouken isnt so crazy? its just a more zen, chill vortex… but is a system of metagame that emphasizes mindgame, wakeup pressure, BnB usage, and rush down.


#12

Oh, I forgot to add that to keep iterations of knockdown going in an assumed Gouken vortex, you just end with a special(all his bnbs do) and dash down with DF’s, dash j.normals, charge fireballs> EXFlip, air parry, dash counter, or bait something to punish with dash palm or sweep.
There are more options for rushdown after knockdown, but look at these options to give you a picture of how gouken really does have the ability to create vortex “trees”, just with some ambiguity on the branches, but not really
anymore than akumas.`
Also, the only thing that the opponent can do safely& consistently when you’re pressuring constantly after they’re teching knockdowns is to back jump and normal… but where does that land them?!

TOWARDS THE MOTHERFUCKIN CORNER. WHERE GOUKEN SETS UP SHOP.

(it’s also one of his vortex sections too… goddamn Im good hahaha)


#13

To USS: I don’t think you really have a grasp of how good the akuma vortex is. For someone who lives in Japan and gets sucked into it regularly, I can guarantee you that akuma has many setups to get into the cross-up tatsu nonsense, and that it’s generally safer than the gouken setups that have been listed here. A correctly performed crossup tatsu on op’s wakeup will evade reversal shoryus. Against a high level akuma, there is no way out of this other than guessing right. Many of the listed gouken setups here can be simply backdashed or blocked with a throw tech at the ready.

That is teemed with the fact that akumas demon flip punch setups are much more destructive and useful. With gouken, the only things to worry about is either a kick from the flip or an empty throw from the flip > land > throw. This essentially means that you can hold block up to a certain point, then start mashing throw and it will get you out of 95% of gouken’s reset > flip setups. Akuma, on the other hand, has a couple other options outside of empty punch flip > throw in a point blank super (grabbing instantly like gief) and shoryu, which will beat almost every other special in the game and is block confirmable… so he can visually see it’s being blocked and FA for safety on reaction.

Elliot is pretty on-point with his assesment. I think Gouken is an interesting character and I find it interesting to come up with these reset setups for him… but outside of cross-unders and other tricky stuff, it’s just too predictable. Even with those tricky setups, your extremely vulnerable to reversals.


#14

Yeah I know that the cross up tatsu is safe(well unless youre pulling some daigo shit where you buffer a dp into a cr.forward to get an autocorrect dp(watch his zangief matchups…it isnt mashing)) but again, we want that as gouken players. We want to get you throwing us so we can tech, and we want dashes so we can increase mind games and bait out focueses, unsafe moves, fireballs, etc. All these are easily punished and lead to knockdowns. Again, I know allllllll about the vortex, for some cred, I play here in austin against fubarduck and hsien , so I’m not unexperienced on japanese level play or american style.
I do agree that it goukens set ups are unsafe, but thats kinda the point… to throw someone off, same as the vortex set ups. but the throw at a ready really isnt an issue when you play gouken right. I agree on akumas fist cancel being more user friendly, but honestly a super setup(his only beastly option in high level play) is wayy to rare to actually implement.

I’m just saying that Gouken has unique opponent wake up options that bank of baiting, techs, and mix up to keep the predictablilty down, and the damage potential up. Plus, his setups while more unsafe(akumas are, I promise you) the follow thru is much less technically demanding(a highly underrated component of why high level characters pan out as winners in high level play.) than something like a point blank super, I mean fuck, might as well learn tsuji demons then…

I agree with you though… goukens vortex is not akumas, merely similar in the move sets, but in philosophy and set ups, it’s his own style…

I’ll get to working on a more complete system for his vortex and post the details ASAP.
meanwhile, keep the suggestions, comments and criticism a’cmin


#15

Oh, and just to show my love for akuma… gouken always loses in a vortex set up if the akuma mixes in Df>palm because there is literally nothing we can do about it(parry is armor broke, anything but ex tetsu is stuffed, and on block akuma has frame advantage on us due to our normal and special startups, except maybe, again, for an extetsu.

I do think Akuma is a better character than gouken, but novelty and shenanigans do count for something…(I’m looking at you feilong and gen)


#16

Pretty sure that you don’t understand what an option select is, dude. :tdown:


#17

oh oh oh, sorry… i was referring to the wrong concept. (not inputting multiple “options” near simultaneously) I got so into the metagame, I fo’got about 'dem combos. durr I meant larger scheme options during links and options after ExPalm and charged fireball hits and the like…

Yeah, Gouken cant do any kind of option selects except maybe a parry on cross up, or his kara taunt :rofl:, but really that kind of technicality isn’t his bag anyway.
Although, not much lab work has been done on it. I’ve got a few things in mind to try.

with akuma something like

far hk option select link c.lk/c.lp(dont see a smuch in high level as below)

c.mkXXhadoken (1 frm link)) far hk option select link c.lk/c.lp(fuck yeah)

both are relatively rare to find yourself in a position to attempt comfortably in high level play, yet are hella important to have down pat.

gouken just wouldnt play right with option selects. Like say his normals were copies of akumas… wtf would you want to link>option select into? every special he’s got blasts the opponent away. Nothing spaces nicely or hit stuns as nicely as akumas…but again, not goukens bag. He’s better off without em. I’ll take less scaling and more char health over option selects(read: "fancy ass loops, 1 frame links, etc…) anyway

Also, on what you sai dearlier about FADC cross unders… not much has been tested with FADC C.U.>parry

that shit is 1 frame on start up and would be great if you expect a poke and not a grab.(whats up balrog match up)
and i’ll be the first to say that you have all day to tech his back throw in a FADC CU situation…


#18

I feel like we’re stoking the Akuma vs. Gouken matchup rivalry talk right now too much though… hahah.

I just wanna get more input on tricks to be used in situations I’ve propsed so I can try and compile a system similar to the vortex thread in Akuma’s thread…

Also, more commentary& criticism as well

Some things I feel are lacking for support as well:
[LIST]http://forums.shoryuken.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=7724338
[]Damage on resets… say if you just do bk throw>j.mp>c.fp or follow it with df dk>combo… to support validity on use
[
] Certain set ups into fireball charge>FADC focus>cr.fp>exPalm… on wake up
[*] using bkthrow as an untech knockdown
[/LIST]


#19

[media=youtube]9JYsCOM1rMo[/media]

this kinda incorporates ideas I was talking about…watch for them on ryu’s wakeup.
Poongko is gouken


#20

Gouken does have “Vortex like” setups on some characters like viper where their reversals just don’t work against your flip so you get safe solid pressure, however, Gouken does not have anything that really can be compared to Akuma’s “Vortex”

Akuma’s Vortex is a set of wake-up options that are either completely safe or very hard to counter but allow you to attack from high-crossup/low-crossup/high/low without the opportunity of getting reversaled and can safely be used by a smart player doing basic option-selects.

Choices after sweep

  1. MK or LK Demonflip - MK punch cancel allows for a hard to see low crossup or a block for a reversal so pause into cr. LK/LP gives option select low against throws that is very safe all around against fast reversals like Ken/Ryu. LK sets up non-crossup punch cancel. MK and LK both setup Kick and demonflip throw. MK beats some reversals like Sagat Tigeruppercut if done properly.
  2. j. HK basic safe-jump option for non-crossups.
  3. crossup j. MK if you can make it fairly ambiguious.
  4. crossup Tatsu>sweep beats all reversals and leads back into the same setup

f. Throw options

  1. Double Dash> MK Flip K this beats all reversals except for Ken Ultra/CannonSpike/and Ryu FP uppercut and leads to powerful combo’s on hit as it WILL stuff other reversals consistantly.
  2. RH FLIP K, gives you a recovery on +1 frame next to your opponent if done right.
  3. Single Dash MK or RH Demonflip punch cancels basic. Both can do demonflip throw also.

Demonflip throw has same options as f. Throw but slightly modified.

General Option if Demonflip throw is dodged buffer demon to catch backdash.

These options allow almost 0 risk for high-reward. I play against probably the best Gouken in the nation and he has NOTHING like this, why? Flip is slower and his feignt is easy to see in comparison to Akuma’s cuz his throw cancel is much slower. Gouken is ok, but his normals and throw cancel are to slow for vortex like mixups. Also his parry breaks against reversals and has majorly punishable recovery on whiff and on hit so ya it is useless as a knockdown or reset mixup tool. Only as the occassional non-EX version with LK or MK to make someone think you jump and throw the parry instead.

Gouken has to poke with cr. MP, fireball, st. RH, cr. LK, cr. RH, and st. MK until an opportunity presents itself. Gouken’s largest problem is his on block frames are just so bad he can’t pressure his opponent very hard into making a stupid mistake.