Gouken vs. Bison / Dictator

gouken

#1

Everybody knows that Bison is a bad matchup for Gouken.
Gouken have less answers against his mixups and you really have to be careful what you can do in his pressure time.
I uploaded a video with some casuals against a strong Bison who knows what psycho power means :wink: and there you will understand why Bison is a bad matchup for gouken.
We will definitely do some more casuals in the future, cause i really want to improve my gouken skill in those matchups !

[media=youtube]-9NV1pfiJxo[/media]

With this thread i also want to call you, to help all other Gouken players to get better in this difficulty matchup.
So write everything down you think about this casual and matchup. What can we do better. Which tactics are good against this Char. What mixups can we do and how can we prevent his pressure time ;).

I will be really glad for any discussion about this matchup.
Lets get stronger !
Peace


#2

As a Bison player, this is my general strategy against Gouken: stay close, peck and grab.

Bison is somewhat predictable with kongo punishability – he will go high 80% of his pokes. Once he’s within range of MK/HK, go for high kongo and be prepared to tech grab immediately after (he may dash to grab, its one of my favorites). Bison is also harder to FA because many of his BnB moves his 2x very quickly (j.MP, scissor kick) or armor break (psycho crusher only better in SSF4).

The best way to keep Bison out is knowing his throw trap setups and keeping him OFF. Gouken is horrid at keeping anyone OFF, but Bison is a special pain with long dashes and a wonderful flying mixup.


#3

I would suggest trying to be offensive against him whenever possible. Trying to figure out his moves is kinda complicated. Kongo must only be used after you figure out the opponent’s playstyle.


#4

Back Dash his headstomps and punish with cr. roundhouse then safe jump / vortex away.


#5

this is another block and tech practice session like balrog, except with more jumping!
i learned something from my last session with dc hustle’s bison: bison can scissor and then wait to see if you neutral jump or ex demon flip.
if you do, bison can react with ex headstomp!
i had to stop trying to break out of his pressure with ex demon flips because of it.
of course, he was letting up on the pressure to bait like that, so i could have started responding with pokes and dash to throw, if i was smart, which i wasnt.


Gouken Match-ups and Character Specifics
#6

If your gonna play to learn opponents playstyle first round, keep him far away, mp fb spam and put a roof over his head. His bnb’s are too easy to mess up so they will hit confirm 99.5% to their entirety. I agree with backdash vs headstomps. His st. Rh is powerful and has excellent reach, if he starts to spam it when close , backdash 2x and restart mp fb spam…he will inevitably slide into backthrow, or cr rh. When were close in proximity on dic’s wakeup he loves that ex headstomp or devils reverse, jump up with him just ahead of him and jab or j.rh, crossunder and whoop that ass…


Gouken Match-ups and Character Specifics
#7

What i have learned so far is, that you have to keep moving, when you are in mid or full range of Bison. So it will be more difficult for him to place save scissor kicks from these ranges. And ya keeping pressure is really the key against a Bison player, since he havent so many defensive tools or answers. For Gouken who really have slow normals against Bison isnt this really an advantage to make pressure, but there is no other way to get him down. Zoning wont help, cause Bison doesnt care about fireballs.
I think its better to poke him on the ground than getting him by jump ins, cause of his great anti air. Sure there are some situations where u can get him by jump ins but i think it shouldnt be usually.
When u play online, there arent so many really good bison players out there and then it isnt anymore a problem for gouken.
But against really good bison players who knows every plus and minus, it is a hard way to get through this matchup.


Gouken Match-ups and Character Specifics
#8

Raun is that GeoM dchustle? I played a dude with this gt and feasted on him…with some farver beans and a nice chianti


#9

This. Also, whenever you block Dictator’s level 2 focus, you are at a -4 or -5 frame disadvantage. This means that Dictator gets to decide what happens next. If he wants to do block strings, there’s nothing you can do except reversal kongo/EX tatsu/Ultra, or block.

I kept trying to do PC crossups in some of those matches. This CAN be done in vanilla SF4, but is extremely hard to time right. In SSF4 this will be part of his offensive game however, where the tail end now has an active hitbox and the hitbox is in general much bettter.

You said last night that you have to improve your reactions, and I can agree with that now when watching the vid. You let me off the hook many times after my whiffed headstomps or incorrectly spaced LP PCs, and other mistakes I made. If you are stressed and unsure which combo to use, just go for a sweep or standing HK. Better than nothing.


#10

Sorry i can only give advice that is relevant to playing against avg-above avg bison players.
i only have experience playing online and i can’t recall playing against any good bison players. One thing i do remember tho is all the bison players i have played online
(380hours of playtime 80% of which is online in championship mode)

is they do st.rh two times in a row so if i ever get hit by one i do a reversal high kongo and it hasnt failed me every 1st time i do it in a match.


#11

Ya average bison players are a complete another story. I dont have any problems against average Bisons aswell.
But the time when you get to meet a real nice Bison player and there are specific ones, then you will change your mind about this matchup.


#12

The reason many Dictator players use two standing HK in a row is that they have +3 frame advantage on hit. What happens is usually that your opponent tries to either stick out a normal move or jump after getting hit by it once. If they stick out a move, your next HK will be out 3 frames earlier than their move, making it a 3 frame attack like a cr.LK. This usually means your HK will stuff whatever normal move they throw out. Good players will know they are at a disadvantage in these situations and won’t try to do these things as often.

Standing HK gives +3 on hit. Crouching MP does +6 on hit and +3 on block. Many Dictator users will throw out crouching MP as a counterpoke bait. If it is blocked, once again your next MK or HK will stuff whatever move they throw out since they essentialy turn into 3 frame pokes.

Now, Rulez usually won’t do these things I mentioned, so using double HK usually does not have much use.


#13

yeah, thats him!
he recently joined the geom squad.
you must be a lot better gouken than i am if you feasted on him.
here is the recorded set i did with dc hustle’s bison.





i learned a lot from watching myself play over the last two months.
i think the best advice for improving your game is to record yourself and watch it.
you can see so much that way.
i hope this helps.


#14

Good stuff Raunwynn. Nice matches and excellent informative commenting. I’ll have to use your vids to step up my Gouken.


#15

thanks!
i rewatched these right before i posted them.
these are almost 2 months old but man, i was getting a little jokey in there with the commentary.
i need to keep it journalistic!


#16

Another reason why Bison users toss 2x HK – it LINKS! I believe it’s actually one of his trials, actually. Two BIG damage hits and the confirm isn’t all that bad. I once played a guy that FA’d my j.HK (while he was near corner) and I proceeded to give him 2x when I landed. At that point, he was down nearly 50% and still stuck there.

Combine that with a sweet dash grab and more HK shenanigans, Bison can be one bad dude to face.


#17

Different playstyles is all…I’m unorthodox.


#18

And I know exactly what you did… :slight_smile:


#19

Nah, HK does not link into a new HK. Frame advantage of 3. Startup 6. However, on a counterhit it might actually be a 1-frame link. Not sure if heavy attacks add 3 frames or 2 frames.

crouching MP links into standing MK and HK. This is pretty easy on a counterhit, but a 1-frame link without a counterhit.


#20

…Mwwwwwuuuhaaaaaaaaahaaaaa…its no use!