Ok, i’m close to my limit, because every match i lose with gouken is only because a single knockout leads to 3 wrong guess on my wakeup, and my death.
Gouken’s wakeup is really bad, we all know, and it is really dangerous, so instead of collecting lost data across the forums, let’s sumarize it all in a single thread, and discuss and theorize from here.
Options on Wakeup, opponent close (throw or kara throw range)
Block, wait a split second, tech Throw
[*]Counter or ex-counter
Options on Wakeup, opponent just jumped for a crossup
reverse Block, wait a split second, tech Throw
Input Counter (shoryuken to the front) and hit late P.
Input Ex-tatsu, (or ex-Demon flip if tatsu don’t come out).
To avoid chip damage
Ex-Demon flip (the only option)
When i fight shotos, their options seem to be, up close:
Poke, usually low poke into something (because tatsu will fail if they are crouched)
FA, both timed to hit at lvl 3 as i wake up, or release just on my wakeup and dash poke_and_combo/poke_and_throw, or FA and backdash cancel just on my wakeup.
block and wait
Go for the crossup / void crossup, into poke/poke_and_throw.
The answer to what they do is:
[*]Low hit confirm Poke into combo
-> ex-tatsu usually fails because they are crouching, owned big time
-> ex-demon flip fails on shotos and fast characters (they go below you and punish you, no matter what you do).
-> backdash usually “dodges” one poke, but the combo goes on so you usually are punished.
**#> **gouken’s block and tech it is usually safe.
**#> **counter or ex counter beats the poke… they may change the timming to bait this though.
[*]Low poke intro throw
-> ex-tatsu usually fails because they are crouching, owned
-> ex-demon flip jumps over them… if they are too close it can and usuallly is punished.
-> backdash usually “dodges” one poke, but he may get you with the throw anyway.
**#> **gouken’s block and tech it is usually safe, but sometimes you will fail the timming and it’s back to a wakeup and to the mixup.
**#> **counter or ex counter beats the initial poke…
-> backdash may be safe, or may be punished if his reaction is good.
**#> ** ex-tatsu wins vs throw.
[*]FA, both timed to hit at lvl 3 as i wake up
-> block and whatever is owned.
-> jumping is usually owned
-> counter is owned
**#> **backdash, if timming is good, leads you to safety.
**#> **ex-demon flip leads to safety with enough time to even punish them.
**#> **ex-tatsu beats FA lvl 3.
**#> **ultra beats FA lvl 3.
[*]FA and release just on my wakeup, dash, poke_and_combo/poke_and_throw
-> same as avobe
[*]FA and backdash cancel just on my wakeup (they can even mash back when they see the ultra animation and be safe).
-> if you used ex-tatsu or ultra to beat FA, it will fail and you will be punished big time.
-> new option if you anticipate the FA cancel is to palm or ex-palm them out of the backdash.
**#> ** ex-demon flip works (is usually blocked, but we have advantage from there).
[*]block and wait
-> backdash will be punished by a sweep in your recovery.
-> ex-tatsu, ex-demon flip, counter, ultra will be punished big time.
**-> **if you grabbed… ok, but they still may tech.
**-> **if you blocked, and tech throw… well, your throw may come out… ok, but they still may tech.
[*]Ex shoryuken (shotos), or a ex-move…
-> if you grabbed from the start, owned
-> ex-tatsu… character dependant… usually both ex-shoryuken and ex-tatsu go up in the invencible frames, and then… usually the tatsu is owned.
**-> **counter, if the shoyuken is ex, he will avoid your hit, you will recover more or less at the same time as theirs…
**-> **if you bloked / block_and_tech, it’s time for your B&B combo.
**-> **ex-demon flip switches sides, you will land faster if you air-throw to recover fast
**-> **backdash may lead you to safety, and punish them on the way down.
[*]Go for the crossup / void crossup, into poke/poke_and_throw.
-> input ex-tatsu with late kkk… depends on timming.
-> input counter to the front and input late P… if you manage to pull this out, 50% mixup.
-> input ex-demon flip / you will get ex-counter if he crossups you, or fly away if he dont… it may be safe… or lead to the 50% mixup.
**-> **backdash “may” lead you to safety
**-> **block and tech may lead you to safety, unless you fail the tech.
The shit in this wakeup game is that we don’t have any single options that beat several from theirs… the choce is really hard, and the choices that may give us the lead can be owned into a big punishment.
#ex-tatsu beats 2 options (throw and FA release).
-risk is high.
-reward is medium damage (except that you avoided the FA release into a big combo)
#counter up/low or ex, usually low or ex, beats 3 options (pokes, FA release without lvl 3, and crossups)
-risk is high
-reward is low
#throw just as you wakeup, beats 2 options (they just block to bait something, and void crossup to bait counter)
-risk is high
-reward is low
#ex-demon flip beats “two” options (all FA, release or backdash, and may lead to safety on crossup and pokes), but it is character dependant, a lot of chars can just walk a little below you and you will fail all options from demon flip.
-risk is medium (they usually sweep or throw you)
-reward is… only maybe safety
#block and tech beats 5 options, (fails vs FA lvl 3, grab, and an overhead if you block low), but you won’t tech all throws… so if you fail, is back to a mixup.
-risk is low, (you will either fail the tech, or eat an overhead if you block low)
-reward is… maybe safety
#backdash… should work in nearly all situation, but is risky because it fails at random, and gouken don’t go very far, so he can be punished… and back to another mixup.
-risk is medium
-reward is… maybe safety.
So we have backdash at random, block and tech that is fairy safe if you tech ok, and back to the same situation if you don’t, and then… a hard mixup with high risk/low reward options.
Only with a FA every character in the game can make us guess if they will backdash or not…
My conclusion is: we are forced to play safe and do “block and tech” in nearly every situation, but that gives free room for them to apply any kind of low risk high reward pressure, so we are in the middle of their blockstring again, and with the risk of the grab at 1 or 2 jabs…
Did i miss something?
is this list wrong?
**Note: **I have not confirmed if the ex-demon flip lead you to safety if opponent try to FA/FAbackdash… it is hard to do because of timming and it’s character dependant too, like doing backdash on our wakeup.