Gouken's counter a sign for the viability of fei's and cammy's?

gouken

#1

Hi, I wanted to ask experienced Gouken players this question. My goal is to get a better prediction for how good of a chance fei and cammy have to land their ultra or to at least sway the game in their favor.

For now, I’m viewing fei and cammy’s counter basically as a 1 time shot counter similar to Gouken’s (except with super armor).

So my first question is:

Are there certain points in a match where you know 100% that you’re going to counter the opponent? Well, against scrubs I guess there are, but what about fighting other experienced players? In other words, if you were in fei or cammy’s shoes where you only had 1 shot to land the counter, how confident are you that you could read your opponent and counter them?

Second question: In what ways does having a counter change the way an opponent fights you? The only thing I know is that I do a lot of empty jumpins versus Gouken compared to other characters in hopes that I’ll bait out his counter. But cammy and fei’s counter is really going to scare the opponents. So that means they’ll have these tendencies amplified to the extreme. So basically, how does your opponent’s fighting style change when they become extremely afraid of your counters?


#2

Well, the easiest counters to land are on jumpins where they stick out something you can see coming. And both Fei and Cammy have SRKs to discourage that already, as well as a complete lack of ability to force anyone to jump in. So my condolences to people who still play Cammy or Fei.


#3

the real strength of gouken’s counter is its recovery.
it recovers so quickly that you can repeatedly guess if your opponent is going to attack with limited risk.
there are very few instances where you know counter is going to hit when you execute it.
i dont think the ultra counters are going to work like that.
i havent seen anything yet that makes me think the ultra counters will be any good.
as crappy as it is, fei long’s first ultra is guaranteed damage after focus attack or on a whiff punish and it still works like a random counter if you do it unconfirmed.
hopefully fei long’s ultra 1 gets improved and the ultra counter has some unique properties that make it a good choice as well.


#4

I’m with them, nothing to make anyone jump at you, combined with the fact you already have srk like moves…

The obvious fact that an Ultra already acts as a counter to predicted moves/pokes… Add to the fact that if you can be thrown out of the Ultra…Ultra 1’s you can’t…

Also I don’t think it will work like Goukens where you can say counter a sonic boom and then hit Guile who is following too closely.

It’s biggest use is going to that you can probably tech on wakeup 90% of the time and guess right since I assume it will hit low and high and it just isn’t worth losing 40% of your life to a low short to Cammy or Fei on wakeup.

There is no 100% certain thing where you can get someone. The closest thing to that is when someone jumps a fireball and it’s very tight between your recovery and their attack. Almost everyone will attack when they jump a fireball. After a counter or two though they may stop…


#5

I was hoping Fei’s new ultra was a command throw.

There’s nothing guaranteed with Gouken’s counter, but it can be valuable if you’re good at picking up patterns in people’s pokes. Like the others mentioned, fireball > jump-in patterns are common.

One downside of the counter is that lots of people you face will become tick throw whores (at least that has been the case from my experience). It can be a brutal situation when facing Gief!


#6

The main difference between Gouken’s Counter, and Cammy/Fei’s new Ultras, is Gouken’s Counter activates in 1 Frame, stays active for 14 Frames(15?) and doesn’t have a giant DON’T ATTACK ME warning/screen-freeze. Also, Gouken’s Counter works on projectiles, but he won’t actually hit the opponent if they are far enough away.


#7

YO GUYS!!! what happens when Guile throws Sonic Boom then FADC past the sonic boom and blocks next to Gouken, then gouken counters the Sonic boom.

Would guile be hit with the counter even if he is blocking?


#8

Gouken’s kongoshin is literally unblockable. If Chun or Guile decide to throw a fireball and walk up to you on your wakeup that’s a free kongoshin.

Just don’t get baited if they stay out of your kongo range and punish your recovery.

Also, counter ultras are terrible for the reasons reipin pillage listed.


#9

thats pretty odd. His kongo is unblockable but his Denjin Hadoken is blockable. Probably cause they didn’t think of that projectile scenario.

Anyway, thanks Kikuichimonji for answering my noob question.


#10

It’s actually not a noob question. You wouldn’t actually know the answer to that unless you tested it or heard from someone who did.


#11

I think its still up in the air as to whether it is blockable at full charge or not. I don’t think anyone knows for sure just yet.


#12

Cammy’s U2 seems nothing like Gouken’s Kongo in that you cannot do it on reaction (from what footage has been presented) and it needs to effectively be telegraphed. So whereas Gouken’s counter is his BnB in setting up the flow of a game in any level of play, Cammy’s (Fei’s also if it turns out to engender the same traits) will only have uses in lower level matches and on-line, with the ‘aid’ of lag.

In other words, if all things remain equal, these moves will be gimmicks only and won’t be used seeing as they need to be chosen over their alternatives. Cammy’s even looks naff to be honest… : /

The irony is however, if two Ultras were indeed available simultaneously, this would actually bring the U2s into play more, given the guessing game that would be apparent.

Ultimately though, having to throw a move out in hope that another suitable move will come to greet itm before thus move has even been considered in the opponent’s head, is not the definition of a ‘counter’ move I’m afraid. :nono:

I never thought about this.

It actually highlights how little thought has been put into some of these U2s and how they’re more ‘filler’ than ‘content’.


#13

Gouken’s Kongo is good fun, but only when you know when to use it.

At distance for jump ins, kongo! Medium-ish range requires knowledge of pokes from opponents to pick high/low, but that’s also still a guessing game. When opponent goes for empty jump-ins or crossovers, I stop it all together – far too easy to be baited into grabs.

My tendencies:

  • Ryu/Akuma/Ken: typically will go with a low kongo at his c.MK range. At that distance, his #1 follow up is a fireball and if I block the c.MK, I immediately go high or EX kongo.
  • Bison: high kongo, most of the time. It stops scissor kicks, s.MK/HK pretty well.
  • Blanka: I bait the sweep and go for either FA into BnB or low kongo because they will slide very often.
  • Cammy: low kongo 90% of the time. All her good pokes moves start low, so it’s worthy of guessing in this direction

#14

I thought Gouken’s U2 was unblockable at full charge…


#15

No one has shown that at all.