Grab Mechanic


#1

I have two questions regarding the grab mechanic. I’ve seen the video that goes into detail of how the grab actually works, but I have a two questions that the video doesn’t really answer.

#1. How do you know if your character has a normal that can blowup the OS wake up grab? For instance, and the easiest example I can think of is Rose’s Hk (I believe). I understand she’s off the ground which removes her from being grabbed. But other than normals that hover you from the ground, what is the mechanic for causing standing normals to not get grabbed? Do their active frames have to already be out when they are waking up? I feel like I try this and still get grabbed on opponents wake up.

#2. This may be answered from #1, but I have a buddy who (for example) plays Juri and will do Cross up -> place me in block stun -> Crmp -> kicks. After he placed me in block stun from a cross up, I do the OS crouch grab tech. But when I do the OS, it will always get beat out by his crmp. From my understanding, shouldn’t the grab beat out his MP? What is causing his MP to beat out the grab or any 3f normal?

There isn’t a mechanic thread in the SF4 section…


#2

You’re mixing up a lot of the terminology, I suggest you take a quick look at the Newbie Saikyo section.

  1. Rose’s cl.mk has no throwable hitbox, it’s designed to be invulnerable to throws for the entire duration. Off the top of my had I can’t think of any other normals that work like that, but there are a few that are airborne during a part of their animation and while in an air state you can’t be thrown (except air throws of course).

Some overheads like juri’s are airborne, but keep in mind they’re not airborne from start, but after a few frames.

  1. If you’re doing the crouch tech, there’s no grab coming out, you’ll always get a normal. In this case because the crossup does little blockstun and he’s using a slower normal afterwards, there’s a gap in that string that’s getting you counterhit. If you want to throw him out of the cr.mp you actually have to perform the throw, standing.

Same logic why 3 frames are getting counter hit, he has frame advantage and by going into cr.mp he’s leaving a gap just wide enough to counter the 2 frames of startup on your move.


#3

Yes. This is called “meaty”, preferably attacking with the latest active frames possible right when they recover from the ground.

If you are being thrown out of meaty attacks you are doing them too late (and getting thrown out of your startup). Do it earlier.

You can choose attacks with larger active frame windows for easier timing for meaty attacks. Of course, your options may be limited in exchange (less/no frame advantage, less hit confirm, etc., etc.)

Well, you’re in blockstun from a jumping attack. Juri probably has frame advantage here, so if you try to throw or cr. LK you’ll be hit since your attacks won’t come out fast enough.

Crouch teching is best done when delayed. You want your cr. LK to stop your opponent’s forward movement so that they don’t throw you, but you don’t want to put that normal in a place where its startup will be interrupted. If you are mashing or the other person is frame trapping you you’re just going to get hit, but if you aim for the tail end of the throw break window it becomes harder to get you to respond to a standard rhythm. Of course, the opponent can just change things up to adapt, but then they’re just giving up their frame advantage and you can hit them.

Try the Saikyo Dojo section.


#4

Isn’t Juri’s close MK pretty much the same as Rose’s ?


#5

Guile’s upside down kick works like Rose’s clsMK in that it’s throw invincible but not airborne. Though the UDK doesn’t become throw invincible till 6F while Rose’s is instant. Also Dhalsim’s Yoga Tower is throw invincible from first frame. Also back in Super/AE there was a miss-set flag for Hakan’s F+HK while oiled that added “Throw” as one of it’s features, net result was that it would perform a throw tech every time you did F+HK while oiled. Not quite the same but figured worth mentioning.


#6

It’s airborne 1-6F, has the same effect of making it throw invincible (to most throws) but it isn’t the same. Rose’s is not airborne it’s actually throw invincible for the entire duration. Juri’s close MK will lose to Hakan’s oil dive for instance while Rose’s will not. However the flip side is that if you hit Juri during those 6F she air resets as though you hit her during a jump, if you hit Rose during her close MK you get a full grounded combo.


#7

What do you mean OS wakeup grab? Do you mean you’re doing a throw shortly after your wakeup in case your opponent throws you, but delayed enough that if your opponent hits you directly on your wakeup, you’ll block instead?


#8

While I wasn’t looking for exact examples of those types of attacks that are throw invulnerable. I was primarily just wondering if I had to do meaty attacks to beat the wakeup os grab. I always felt I was going them (major example is oni b mp), but I will still get grabbed. Just wanted to make sure I had the correct idea.

Thanks for the quick answers.

If you’re referring to #2, then yes. Except I keep getting hit when I try to do the os grab after he lands from the cross up. I do it to, hopefully, prevent crossup grabs.


#9

Interesting stuff, I wonder how they came to make these decisions.


#10

I wondered if I had to do this standing. I understand there is a major difference in the time to tech moves while standing.

To your point about the counter hit, that’s what I’m trying to prevent. I would assume the 3f grab would beat out his 5f mp.


#11

While we are on the topic of frames in the thread (while it’s off topic).

I read up on frame data all the time but want to understand something. If I do a 4 frame mp that is -4 on block, can someone hit me with a 4f normal or is everyone’s animation back to 0 and that will only hit if they punish a button that is 5f or longer?


#12

Under normal circumstances yes, but he’s + frames after the crossup.

I still don’t understand what you mean by wakeup grab OS. Can you give the scenario you’re refering to?


#13

just any generic hard knockdown to someone waking up with grab.

I walk to the them with (for example oni b mp as they’re waking up) and they do down back grab.

While I understand if I do it to late, I’ll get grabbed. Too early and they’ll block.

But for instance, I try to do it with yang crmk and always get grabbed. I’m trying to understand what type of normals will “blow up” the os.


#14

Ok if they do down back grab you’re not gonna get throw. They get a crouching short, which you can counterhit if you do a slightly delayed normal of your own.

If they’re waking up with a standing grab, meaties will stuff it, preferably lows. So in your case you’re probably mistiming it. Yang is generally bad for this because he has few active frames so you’ll get a lot more sucess with ken’s cr.lk, for instance. You could stay deceptively out of range and do cl.mk with yang. It has 4 active frames and great reward on hit.


#15

Excellent example.

Disregard…thanks for all the info.