Graphing character stats, need help with Seth

Just looking for input on this in general, and for each character specifically.

As stated I’d like to keep discussion for each character in the separate threads I am making in their respective sub forums, and input on the idea in general in the above thread.

Also as stated, despite discussion in this thread being open to anyone it would help me separate the wheat from the chaff if each forum could appoint someone who knows what the hell they are talking about to give me the numbers to plug into my spread sheet.

My garbage numbers for Seth:

Endurance - 0.5
Reversal ---- 3.5
AA ------------ 4
Zoning ------- 4
Rush --------- 3.5
Mix up -------- 5
Dmg pot ----- 4
Viability ------- 1.5

Endurance - 0.5
Reversal ---- 3.5
AA ------------ 4.5
Zoning ------- 4
Rush --------- 3.5
Mix up -------- 5
Dmg pot ----- 4
Viability ------- 1.5

Other than the Viability and the Endurance these are little more than place holder numbers. Input greatly appreciated.

The end result of all of this will be a spreadsheet with pull down menus to compare up to three characters like so:

Uploaded with

there are a fair few here that know there stuff. two that come to mind is Kikuichimonji & Staying Free, that’s if they decide to grace this place with there presence. So these stats are “Character + Ultra” & not just Ultra right?

If so, my “imo”

Endurance - 0.5
Reversal ---- 4.5 (Teleports, superior SRK, EX Command Grab… If we’re taking note of low health here to, then it’d be 2.5/3)
AA ------------ 3.5 (Great perfect range AA, but lacks good long range or anti-cross up AA [say, Sakuras crouch HP])
Zoning ------- 5 (Seth controls space against everyone except Fuerte i feel)
Rush --------- 4 (Top shit with meter, considerably weaker without, can’t fault the dive kick though)
Mix up -------- 5 (duh!)
Dmg pot ----- 4 (Don’t quite understand, is this typical combo damage? because his combos arn’t that lethal, just they have a habit of leading to mix-ups)
Viability ------- 1.5 (???)

Endurance - 0.5
Reversal ---- 4.5
AA ------------ 4
Zoning ------- 4.9 (Ultra 1 adds to his zoning prowess)
Rush --------- 4
Mix up -------- 4.9 (Ultra 1 offers a fantastic mix-up oppertunity)
Dmg pot ----- 4
Viability ------- 1.5

If i were to recommend an aspect, whether you decide to add it or not is up to you of course.

Punish - As in, what can the charact do in a punish istuation, say, a blocked SRK. (Makoto or Guile is pretty pants in this aspect, Akuma or cody is pretty high.)

You should make an application like Acku did for the Community Tier List.

Endurance - 0.5


Reversal options are an important factor when considering a character’s overall endurance.

Reversal - 4.0


Seth loses half a point for having a 5-frame SRK and half a point for his teleport.
I’m assuming that Akuma would have a 5 in his ranking.

Anti-Air - 4.0


The best SRK in the game, but no go to normal like a crouching fierce
I think that you should do something to differentiate the characters with anti-airs that knock down.

Zoning - 3.5


Seth’s long to mid range game is good, but not great. His normals and fireballs aren’t as dominating as Dhalsim’s, Sagat’s, Shotos’, Guile’s etc.

Rush Down - 2


Seth doesn’t have a great approach option like Yun’s Divekick or Akuma’s EX Air Fireball.
Seth cannot continue to apply pressure after a blocked mixup due to his poor normals and walk speed.
Seth does not have a safe, high priority move that leads to a knockdown like Rekkas, Chicken Wing, or Akuma’s Far Roundhouse.
Seth’s Sweep is mediocre.

Mixup - 4.5


Seth has great mixups, but they don’t restrict the opponent’s options as much as Akuma’s Vortex.

Damage Potential - 3


Although Seth’s BnBs lead to mixups, his damage is relatively low outside of optimum punishes

Viability - 1.5


I’d remove this category, or base it on something like consistency in matchups (For example, character like Yun, who has good matchups across the board would have a higher viability than Dhalsim, who has matchups that vary wildly).

I agree with xlxlxl though I vary a little. Things I disagree with:

Anti-air: 3.5. Can’t really AA at certain ranges reliably without Ultra 1 stocked. His cross up defense option (cst.HP) has a habit of activating in the wrong direction and has to be really close.

Zoning: 3.0. Seth’s zoning game is pretty much “meh.” He can zone but anyone else with a zoning game can usually do better as long as they aren’t predictable as hell. In addition, I think his mid range game is ass…way too much risk. Though I think his long range game is great.

Rush down: 3.5. Seth’s still got a dive kick and it’s pretty effective. He can apply pressure but he does it a bit differently than everyone else does it, and it’s a bit more risky. That sweep is pretty ass though. Really does need meter to do his rush down effectively though. Otherwise he’s basically biding his time for you to do something stupid.

Damage potential : 3.5. Seth’s damage is actually a tad on the high side against most characters. He isn’t Dudley or Makoto but he can deal decent damage and good stun.

Random: Seth’s endurance is probably on par with Akuma’s now. His teleport and DP are not as good but the health buff and stun buff do a lot for him. EX SPD is pretty valuable from what I’ve been hearing from Kiku. A lot of Seth’s match ups are not in his favor on paper but in practice he does pretty okay, similar to Viper. Also Seth’s punish options are actually really good but only if they put the opponent close to him or have long recovery time.

Yeah I’d go with xlxlxl + Breaker’s revisions, with the exception of his Zoning being a 3.0 and his Rushdown being a 3.5.
For Zoning I think 3.5 is fair, he was almost a mini Dhalsim in Super (though he has lost a LOT in his nj.HP nerf).
And for his Rushdown I’d say 2 to 2.5 because it is below average. Most other characters in the game have some sort of safe pressure, and Seth just doesn’t have any safe specials on block. (cept SPD, but that’s an exception) Although he is often played as a Rushdown character, I would classify him as one, he has a very odd role in comparison to other Rushdown based characters.

So xlxlxl + Breakers with these revisions:
Zoning // 3.5
Rushdown // 2.0-2.5

I’m not considering execution difficulty in most of the following. First score is for U1, second for U2.

Reversals 4/4.5 [details=Spoiler]I think Seth has possibly the best reversals in the game amongst his EX SPD, hp srk, teleport, and backdash. Seth can EX SPD safe jumps. His teleport isn’t Akuma-like but it does its job. He gets a mixup off his DP if you fadc it. The only disadvantages of his reversals are that they don’t do massive damage and his ultras are slow. His DP is 5 frames but the only time that matters is against safe jumps. Which EX SPD usually beats. With U2 DP FADC ultra his reversal becomes stronger even though it’s not as much damage as Sagat’s TU fadc ultra.

Endurance [details=Spoiler]Seth has the lowest vitality in the game still. If you want to judge these categories on their own then he should get the lowest score in the game.[/details]

200 health might not seem like too much. After all, 800 is still 80% of 1000, right? Well, the reason why this analysis is bad is that most damage in this game comes from depletion of limited resources (ultra and super meter). Your opponent usually only gets 1 ultra combo each round. Many of these combos do 500 damage. After getting hit by a 500 damage combo, Seth has 300 vitality. Ryu has 500. That’s 60% of Ryu’s. So basically, as long as Seth doesn’t get hit by an ultra, his low health doesn’t matter. But if he gets hit by a full ultra suddenly this becomes an extremely glaring weakness .[/details]

AA 5/4.5 [details=Spoiler]Seth has an AA for every goddamn situation. U1, hp srk, lp srk, cl.hp,, focus attack, sweep to make the move whiff,, and are all anti-airs for different situations. His hp SRK has amazing range if you do it early enough. His EX SRK has even better range because you can hit them with it early in their jump. U1 means they can’t jump anywhere on the screen… nobody besides Ryu can do that.

Seth can lp srk, autocorrect hp srk, or cl.hp crossups.

When someone whiffs a jump-in you can SPD as they land and it’s free.

The only problem with Seth’s anti-air is that without ultra it doesn’t lead to high damage. But it always leads to mixup potential.[/details]

Zoning 4/3.5 [details=Spoiler]Seth has strong options at every range besides point blank. However, most of his best pokes can be jumped over and his tall hitbox makes punishing them this way easier. Seth’s pokes, however, are currently very strong. His,,, s.hp,, sonic boom, and focus attack makes the opponent work at midrange no matter what character they are. Tanden whiff punish gives you a full combo. The risk of these moves is somewhat negated by his very strong anti-air.

At full screen he can out-fireball almost all characters because of EX legs, s.hp to punish/trade with fireballs, and his fast hp sonic boom.

Seth has an excellent corner escape with his walljump.

The biggest problem with Seth’s zoning is 1) that he has to give up ground in order to maintain distance and 2)most of his options can be punished HARD in most matchups while his own options don’t do such strong damage.

The biggest reason Seth’s zoning is strong is because he cannot be zoned himself and his reactionary play is VERY strong. He can play his game at any range if he keeps guessing right.[/details]

Rushdown 3.5/3 [details=Spoiler] Seth has powerful ways to get in but they are all punishable. He has dash up SPD, divekick, focus attack, tanden,, sonic boom fadc, etcetera. However, because of Seth’s low health these options are restricted. He also does not have a 3 frame jab or short to continue pressure, or the ability to walk up to opponents because of his garbage walkspeed. Seth without meter and down on life can have an extremely hard time pulling out the win against a patient opponent. In order to get in Seth has to bait out anti-airs and jumps. However, Seth’s U1 can punish most escapes (including jump back!).

Seth cannot convert a random jab at midrange into a huge combo or a strong mixup like Ryu or Yun can. Combos ending with legs midscreen leave you at a very minor advantage on wakeup. This limits his ‘vortex’ potential. However, in the corner his options are MUCH stronger. He gets a mixup off a midscreen combo ending in uppercut as well.

Seth can OS most backdashes and reversals with safe jump OS U1, DP, or legs . He can make Chun free on wakeup.

Seth’s U1 on hit can easily lead to a free round because of the safe mixup following it.[/details]

Mixup - 4.5 [details=Spoiler]Nothing Seth does is safe. But he has too many options to consider or counter all of them at once. He has too many mixups to adapt really. He has divekick/, SPD/(hit-confirm/AA), instant overhead stomp, blockstring reset w/ tanden, and jump-in/empty jump low. His SRK fadc is safe and beats most other reversals clean. His reset mixups off divekick are strong and can lead to stun easily. They are harder to uppercut than most mixups and simply add even more options to his mixup than usual.[/details]

Damage potential - 3.5[details=Spoiler] Seth’s damage essentially maxes out at a bit over 400 for any combo. However, he can get that meterless off a simple combo in the corner. In order to get damage Seth is shooting for either a stun or a corner combo.

Seth’s damage potential is only powerful as a momentum character. He has to hit the opponent multiple times to win a round. Seth’s simple punish combos do mediocre damage outside the corner.[/details]

Viability - 3[details=Spoiler] Seth has bad matchups but Seth’s playstyle is so versatile that they can usually be overcome with solid play. His weakest matchups are ones where he can be ‘out-randomed.’ In these matchups Seth has to base his game off his strong reactive gameplay. However, if the opponent gets a life lead you are in big trouble.

Poongko’s performance at Evo shows that Seth can be played at high levels successfully.

Seth’s biggest advantage in terms of viability is that most players don’t know the matchup well enough. And even when they do, you can simply change your playstyle and your opponent is forced to adapt. Like Ibuki, Seth is too slippery to put into a box. He can always body you if you don’t go full out and play your best.

Seth has no ‘free’ matchups besides Zangief and possibly T Hawk. He has lots of trouble against Adon, El Fuerte, and Makoto.

Seth has to change his ultra based on the matchup. In general, in AE U2 is more viable.[/details]

Just my 2 cents.