Guile myth


#1

well, hi everybody

didnt know where i should post this question so i simply decided it belongs to the Newbie forum.
as in the topic mentioned, it is about Guile.

I just dont understand why he is considered weak and sometimes even “useless” in comparison to his versions from ST or HD remix.
I mean i got some friends who are really good with Guile and fighting against them feels like stopping a moving stingy wall.

At the same time, every second Guile online seems to have mastered absolute defense, no jump-ins, no walk ups, no jumps at all because of air grab.

So my question to everyone who knows better…
What exactly is so “useless” about Guile? Why is he considered weak?

To be more specific… how do you beat him if it is “so easy to beat Guile” ?

PS: sorry for my bad english, i just hope you get what i mean :looney:


#2

try and out-turtle him, that’s always fun


#3

The problem is that several of his moves are much weaker than in past versions of the game. Flash Kick is very much weakened, his Ultra does very little damage compared to many others and he has few set-ups in which to use it.


#4

Guile is weak because he can’t do big damage in many common situations because of limited combo potential. This also makes it make harder for him for him to come back from a big life disadvantage. He has no cross-up defense, his footsie game is lacking (compared to previous iterations), his flash kicks are unreliable as anti-airs, he rarely sees his super because he needs EX meter for zoning, his Ultra is one of the worst in the game and he can’t even combo into it.

As for beating him, it depends on which character you’re playing. But the general rule is to get a life lead then turtle. It’s very risky for Guile to come to you, especially with such slow normals. That’s why most Guile players prefer to play defensively.


#5

Oh i forget to tell you that, I play Gouken since… i guess 3 weeks, still have to get better with fireball zoning… i always throw them out when opponent is near enough to jump over them xDD

But good advise, i just try to think of that, guess experience is still the key :confused:

Thanks for clearing guiles weaknesses for me, but its really strange for a character with the most normals (except Gen) to be that weak with normals ^^


#6

Don’t get me wrong, Guile has some great normals (fp is very good), but compared to previous games they are weak. In SF2, Guile could work you into the corner with just mk and maybe 1 sonic boom bazooka knee combo.


#7

On paper, Guile is pretty good. Great projectile, awesome normals, strong zoning, and strong defense. But in practice, he is terrible. He excels when his opponent needs to come to him. In this area, he has great tools for shutting people down and can use his zoning abilities very offensively. But when you actually play Guile, you can easily out turtle him. When Guile is force to advance, he doesn’t have any useful options for getting in, creating mix ups, or just doing damage. Basically, work for a few cheap shots on him, and you can lame out the time clock.


#8

I don’t think of him as bad. Defensive characters are only bad when they’re trying to comeback. Besides I never have an easy fight against guile or other defensive characters (dhalsim/chun) if they are around my level.


#9

He isn’t horrendous, but he’s far from good. When his combo’s do as much as a throw or close to it, it’s extremely hard to find that character viable. Especially considering the frames in which you have to do it. Now, a character like Sagat has the hardest links and cancels in the game. He does a lot more damage though. Guile is basically in the same boat but does less damage.

The top characters in this game usually have a way to combo or cancel into ultra. That’s why Ryu, Rog, Rufus, and Sagat are so good. Guile’s ultra is almost unlandable. You have to use it on a jump in and even then it isn’t guaranteed to do any amount of damage like other characters would.

His normals don’t have the hit boxes they used to and neither does his specials. His normals lost range, and width resulting in a less effective move. Same with his specials. Sonic boom is good hit box wise but it’s damage doesn’t come close to being viable even with the speed differences. So his game is boiled down to jab sonic booms and slight pressure by zoning. The problem is he doesn’t even have the best zoning tools, yet he is supposed to be a zoning character. Dhalsim, Ryu, Akuma, Sagat, and Chun-Li all have better zoning options. Mind you the only strictly zoning character out of those is Dhalsim.

His Flash Kick is not reliable vs jump ins. Which is fine, if it did more damage. However, with bad hit boxes it doesn’t cleanly hit or hit where it should as an anti-air where DP’s, headbutts, SBK’s, and Dhalsim knees do.

Basically, out of every tool he has there are characters with better tools and better tool sets. I play Guile a little bit for fun and he can win. It’s just how much better you have to play and how much more work you have to put into the character to win the round.

I can go into more detail but I’m hoping you get the main theme.


#10

What do you consider hard about sagat? The whole point is his ultra is incredibly easy to combo in to, he does massive damage anyway with lots of tools, and he has loads of health. That’s why he’s top tier… just like all the other top tier characters really.


#11

sagat has very easy links compared to guile lol.


#12

Simplest answer is that teir lists aren’t acurate at all levels of play. They assume both players are equally skilled and know the match up in and out. I mean, if you don’t know how to punish a flash kick, Guile is better, right? If you’re losing to guile, the player is better than you and/or knows the character matchup better than you. People that say guile sucks, are fighting equal or lesser skilled players than they are.

As far as how I beat Guile…I usually do like some others have said. Try and out-turtle him. Get more health than he does and then match his sonic booms with fireballs. Destroy his SBs quickly, and he can’t mix you up with overhead/sweep off them. Can also cross him up pretty well on untechable knockdowns. The timing is pretty difficult for him to flash kick in the right direction. Don’t let him use his sweep…it’s very punishable. If you block the first hit, you can focus the second, or hit a quick reversal like srk.


#13

Mmmm… I’m not quite sure about that. I would say 90% of Guile’s useful combos are links and they do less damage than a j.hk --> st.hk combo.

To the OP, lets say, once you knock Guile down, it’s very hard for him to get back up. Guile has shitty wakeup options (I’d like to say worst), especially when the opponent decides to wakeup cross up Guile. However, once Guile is in the “absolute defense” mode, it’s pretty hard character to get into. He has tools to keep people out very well, but once you get into his defense, Guile has little options to get out.


#14

thanks everyone, very helpful and informative stuff right here ^^


#15

ok, basically, guile is not useless at scrub level. even at high level he is useable. to me and you, guile will probably always be a viable character choice. it’s at the top, top level he’s just not good enough.

why?

shit damage. even if your opponent makes a mistake, guile can’t punish it to the extent that more than 50% of the cast could.

900 stun. this would be acceptable if his flash kick had high priority like it did before. a lot of the cast’s normals beat it or trade with it. guile can’t punish the trade, unlike sagat or ryu. remember he’s only got 2 special moves. if one of them is gimped, the other one does tiny damage (sonic boom), then guile does have serious flaws. yes, his normals slightly make up for it, but even these are weak in the damage department.

the ultra. the top characters in the game also have the best ultras. either it’s easy to hit, comboable or has huge damage if it connects. abel, viper, sagat, balrog, ryu, ken, rufus, seth, chun li, gouken, cammy, gen, sakura and a couple of others have combo into ultra. some have more than 5 ways to combo it. some with big damage too.

seth’s is ridiculously easy to hit even without comboing it. it then sets up a potentially massive combo afterwards.
akuma’s might be hard to hit, but it’s still better than guile’s, plus it does huge damage.
zangief’s & blanka’s do absurd damage too.
dhalsim has a million setups for his.
honda has an amazing super which sort of makes up for his lack of ultra. honda’s ultra does very good damage if it connects though.
m.bison technically has a way to combo into his one. he also has a great focus attack and no down back charge for his ultra, which makes it an easier to hit and more viable choice than guile’s.
i’d say the only characters on the game with a worse ultra are fei long, rose and vega. oh look, they are all low tier too! which proves the original theory.

1 frame links. play as guile for 3 months. learn his combo strings. then, see how many times you get shoryuken’d/ultra’d out of them.

if guile gets a good ultra, a working flash kick and some more damage, he will be a beast in super street fighter 4. he wont be broken, just good. it’s up to the developers if they want a good guile in the game or not. only time will tell.


#16

honestly id take fei’s Vega’s and rose’s ultra over guile.
He has the most absurd motion for an ultra posing no threat at all and a crappy focus attack to land it. it
Rose’s ultra is really good imo. great anti air, punishes blanka balls goes through fireballs and way safer.
Fei has a great focus attack for his ultra, and you can combo into it off a dp fadc that does decent damage if you get the full hits.
Vega’s sucks but good agaisnt Ryus and sagats if you have the life lead.

Honda’s ultra, at least it armor breaks and can go through fireballs at a certain range. but also very crappy ultra.


#17

the funniest thing of all is, if there were no ultras in this game, guile would probably shoot right up the tier list.


#18

Read later into it. I said he can easily combo into ultra. I was talking about his links and cancels not including ultra.

Don’t base it off of one combo. I’m talking overall combos. Not just Sagat’s easy stuff. Also, you’ll only land that combo maybe once in 6 games.


#19

honestly id take fei’s Vega’s and rose’s ultra over guile.
He has the most absurd motion for an ultra posing no threat at all and a crappy focus attack to land it. it
Rose’s ultra is really good imo. great anti air, punishes blanka balls goes through fireballs and way safer.
Fei has a great focus attack for his ultra, and you can combo into it off a dp fadc that does decent damage if you get the full hits.
Vega’s sucks but good agaisnt Ryus and sagats if you have the life lead.

Honda’s ultra, at least it armor breaks and can go through fireballs at a certain range. but also very crappy ultra.


#20

His garbage ultra doesn’t help the fact. One of the main reasons I switched to Blanka.