I shouldn’t have said I hadn’t seen many good chun players on GGPO because Skidmarked Panties and Llamah both beat my ass today.
Both are strong intermediate-to-high-intermediate players. They’re also both very helpful and willing to offer advice if you ask.
You’re right though. Most chun players on ggpo are crap. They think chun takes no skill to learn and choose her for the gimmicks. But it does say a little about your play since the match is about 7-3 for chun. If you see SMP and llamah often go and ask them. I feel SMP is more solid in his play than llamah though. You can also ask zagi and paper cut. Great chuns as well (IMO, better than SMP and llamah, although paper cut can be a bit trolly). I’m on rarely but if you can catch me on I can help you with the matchup too. There used to be more chuns but they don’t show up on ggpo much anymore (since the summer, I’ve dialed down a lot too…)
I think I have the timing down for hitting the neckbreaker with flash kick, you were right eltrouble you just have to do it late and it will beat it. I was doing better against another Chun I played yesterday by knocking her down and doing the cross up or a tick throw. I think I understand the match better now but it’s still one of the more difficult ones. If you get a hard knock down is it worth going for j short (switching between cross up and normal), cr strong xx flash kick and if she blocks just a tick throw?
Personally, I’d always go for the ambiguous crossup after a knockdown. If you can space and time it properly, it’s pretty hard to guess which side Guile will hit. Hit confirm into combo of your choice.
If she blocks, you can either play it safe and do cr.strong, cr.short x sonic boom, or you can go for tick throws. Tick throws have a bit of risk, since there’s a good chance she’ll counter throw you first. Chun can make Guile cry for days if you get caught in her throw loop mixups. The alternative is to mix up your tick throw setups. cr.jab ~ throw, cr.jab x2 ~ throw, cr.strong ~ throw, cr.short ~ throw, etc etc… Mix it up to avoid getting predictable, which makes it harder for chun to know when and where she needs to stand up to counter throw.
Yeah, that’s what I’ve been doing, going for the ambiguous cross up. I’m going to look into learning that block string because i was just going for tick throws if she blocked the right way.
Don’t confuse neckbreaker with headstomp.meaty neckbreaker needs a reversal flashkick.
Also, if you don’t have a charge,a then li jump in becomes a guess between headstomp, regular kick or a punch. All requiring a different answer from guile. Almost every sonic boom from guile is a free chance to jump in on guile by chun. And if the guile is psychic, she doesn’t even need to jump in.
Oh yeah, I meant headstomp, my mistake. The neckbreaker can be a pain on wake up too.
What you mentioned is a lot of my problem in this match, I’ll throw a boom and then she’ll jump in on me and it feels like there’s nothing i can do if I’m not chrarged. What normals do you use for punch and kick jump ins? I have been using crouching fierce against her punches and kicks.
Nothing you can do against neckbreaker on wakeup. She can make it safe to reversal flash kicks and supers. You block and pray to God you can get out of the mixup.
This goes back to knowing the right ranges to throw sonic booms. It’s not about zoning her, it’s about understanding her options, and knowing where to keep yourself in order to better punish those options. Guile’s only AA options is st.strong (earlier the better), cr.fierce trade anti-airs (only works at far ranges), or cross-under AAs (these work best). Once you realize how utterly useless Guile is at the mid-range, your job will be to either keep yourself at a distance, or keep yourself close enough to punish bad jump ins. At that point, it’s time to play footsies, which isn’t too bad.
I just know the matchup from chuns side. So I don’t recall the normalo guileis opposed to use.I DO know it is a guessing game though and a few times guiles told me the normals but I never remember for more than a week.
As for the neckbreaker, against average chuns ALWAYS reversal flash kick. The timing for it is really strict and i still mess it up ocassionally. The problem with this is that builds a bad habit when you get a chun who times it right. Your flash kick will whiff. Try to guage where the neckbreaker will make contact. Often I know I messed up the timing right after I push the button. If chun makes contact with you high (its really only safe if she makes contact and her legs are BELOW the stage) then its a free reversal flash kick, assuming you have the timing down. Otherwise don’t risk it you’ll eat the neckbreaker if you time it wrong. She only crosses up guile with her neckbreaker if she’s at point blank. So guess normal more often than not. Other characters its block normal always or its 50/50 something about guiles speed or hitbox makes it so its harder for chun to catch up to him for a crossup neckbreaker than normal (which is why this is the only match up you’ll see me do a ton ambiguous neckbreaker occasionally, simply because even with chuns amazing walk speed, some situations she can’t get close enough). When it looks ambiguous try to guague if she had extra time before pressing kick.if so its a guess. If not block normal. Judge by the actual time she has, not by the movement. I’ve purposely stutter stepped REALLY early so it looks like I ran out of time to trick guiles to blocking normal instead of backwards.
If chun jumps over you before meaty neckbreaker block the original direction. She can’t do it the other direction without making it look really obvious. Else she mistimed it and you can flashkick.
Again, its only guiles that can use these tricks, everyone either blocks normal all the time or its an absolute guess as we can dance around the sweet spot for a crossup.
Her neckbreaker has weird properties. It’s really ambiguous on shotos, but againt Dhalsim, it is ALWAYS in front, despite his huge hurt box. It’s bizarre.
Actually, its the generally the bigger characters she can’t cross up. It has nothing to do with the hurtbox ASD more to do with how far the center line is firm the outside “push” box. And thus his generally the larger characters with generally larger hit/hurt boxes chun can’t cross up. Like Honda, blanka and gief. Amazingly, it works on hawk though. Yay!
So dhalsim isn’t the character that behaves oddly. Hawk is.
And its just because he doesn’t follow a general rule. Not like guile who has all sorts of craziness.
That makes a lot of sense, although I’d be interested to see the slow-mo of why it works on Hawk and not anyone else. There always seems to be an exception to any rule in ST.
Guile can also anti-air Chun with his diagonal jumping fierce “ear slap”, much like Ryu can with juggle strong punches. But since it beats Chun’s aerial kicks in front of him, but not from above, if Chun doesn’t attack, you are probably going to whiff the move and be left wide open for punishment. Chun can also use her fierce punch instead (Otochun usually reacts and uses punch in air-to-air situations), which has much better priority, but even that loses to Guile’s aerial slap.
Flash Kick vs Shoryuken: fast-forward up until 29:32 to see the technique. It beats reversal throws and works against several other characters too.
Edit: thanks to kuroppi for linking the video at ST Revival.
I’m confused about how this works. A lot of times I will knock someone down and cross them up with jump short and if i somehow do it too early or don’t finish the combo I almost ALWAYS get reversal thrown. As far as I know, jump short, flash kick isn’t a blockstring of combo without cr. strong or something in the middle. I’m not sure why reversal throw or srk wouldn’t beat this unless there’s something I’m missing.
It’s an option-select. Damdai used it to great effect against Cammy players back when he played Guile.
It works on similar principle to the old shotos throw/uppercut o/s. I’m not sure if that’s what he went for here, or if he just happened to guess two flash kicks in a row and get lucky, but either way, it works. It’s about making your opponent guess the mixup. The theory is that if you time the flash kick properly, you’ll beat the uppercut, since flash kick has a bit more invulnerability frames than an srk. But if the opponent does nothing, then the throw mixup activates first and you throw them. If your opponent manages to land the throw first, you’ll automatically kara cancel into a flash kick, while they whiff a throw button.
It’s a combo, but it demands precise timing.
As for the throw, it’s usually a good idea to attempt a throw after cross-ups, since they often whiff depending on timing, hitboxes, and scroll. Most players do it, but you can also get baited: the enemy may purposely jump ahead of time, land before you recover from a knockdown, and perform an invulnerable move just before you mash throw. As players gain experience, they often react to a mistimed jump on their part with such moves so as to try and avoid being thrown for free.