Guile thread


Oh yeah, I meant headstomp, my mistake. The neckbreaker can be a pain on wake up too.

What you mentioned is a lot of my problem in this match, I’ll throw a boom and then she’ll jump in on me and it feels like there’s nothing i can do if I’m not chrarged. What normals do you use for punch and kick jump ins? I have been using crouching fierce against her punches and kicks.


Nothing you can do against neckbreaker on wakeup. She can make it safe to reversal flash kicks and supers. You block and pray to God you can get out of the mixup.

This goes back to knowing the right ranges to throw sonic booms. It’s not about zoning her, it’s about understanding her options, and knowing where to keep yourself in order to better punish those options. Guile’s only AA options is st.strong (earlier the better), cr.fierce trade anti-airs (only works at far ranges), or cross-under AAs (these work best). Once you realize how utterly useless Guile is at the mid-range, your job will be to either keep yourself at a distance, or keep yourself close enough to punish bad jump ins. At that point, it’s time to play footsies, which isn’t too bad.


I just know the matchup from chuns side. So I don’t recall the normalo guileis opposed to use.I DO know it is a guessing game though and a few times guiles told me the normals but I never remember for more than a week.

As for the neckbreaker, against average chuns ALWAYS reversal flash kick. The timing for it is really strict and i still mess it up ocassionally. The problem with this is that builds a bad habit when you get a chun who times it right. Your flash kick will whiff. Try to guage where the neckbreaker will make contact. Often I know I messed up the timing right after I push the button. If chun makes contact with you high (its really only safe if she makes contact and her legs are BELOW the stage) then its a free reversal flash kick, assuming you have the timing down. Otherwise don’t risk it you’ll eat the neckbreaker if you time it wrong. She only crosses up guile with her neckbreaker if she’s at point blank. So guess normal more often than not. Other characters its block normal always or its 50/50 something about guiles speed or hitbox makes it so its harder for chun to catch up to him for a crossup neckbreaker than normal (which is why this is the only match up you’ll see me do a ton ambiguous neckbreaker occasionally, simply because even with chuns amazing walk speed, some situations she can’t get close enough). When it looks ambiguous try to guague if she had extra time before pressing kick.if so its a guess. If not block normal. Judge by the actual time she has, not by the movement. I’ve purposely stutter stepped REALLY early so it looks like I ran out of time to trick guiles to blocking normal instead of backwards.

If chun jumps over you before meaty neckbreaker block the original direction. She can’t do it the other direction without making it look really obvious. Else she mistimed it and you can flashkick.

Again, its only guiles that can use these tricks, everyone either blocks normal all the time or its an absolute guess as we can dance around the sweet spot for a crossup.


Her neckbreaker has weird properties. It’s really ambiguous on shotos, but againt Dhalsim, it is ALWAYS in front, despite his huge hurt box. It’s bizarre.


Actually, its the generally the bigger characters she can’t cross up. It has nothing to do with the hurtbox ASD more to do with how far the center line is firm the outside “push” box. And thus his generally the larger characters with generally larger hit/hurt boxes chun can’t cross up. Like Honda, blanka and gief. Amazingly, it works on hawk though. Yay!

So dhalsim isn’t the character that behaves oddly. Hawk is.

And its just because he doesn’t follow a general rule. Not like guile who has all sorts of craziness.


That makes a lot of sense, although I’d be interested to see the slow-mo of why it works on Hawk and not anyone else. There always seems to be an exception to any rule in ST.


@Unessential u mean wider characters, T hawk is nt wide, he is tall, thats it


Guile can also anti-air Chun with his diagonal jumping fierce “ear slap”, much like Ryu can with juggle strong punches. But since it beats Chun’s aerial kicks in front of him, but not from above, if Chun doesn’t attack, you are probably going to whiff the move and be left wide open for punishment. Chun can also use her fierce punch instead (Otochun usually reacts and uses punch in air-to-air situations), which has much better priority, but even that loses to Guile’s aerial slap.


Flash Kick vs Shoryuken: fast-forward up until 29:32 to see the technique. It beats reversal throws and works against several other characters too.
Edit: thanks to kuroppi for linking the video at ST Revival.


I’m confused about how this works. A lot of times I will knock someone down and cross them up with jump short and if i somehow do it too early or don’t finish the combo I almost ALWAYS get reversal thrown. As far as I know, jump short, flash kick isn’t a blockstring of combo without cr. strong or something in the middle. I’m not sure why reversal throw or srk wouldn’t beat this unless there’s something I’m missing.


It’s an option-select. Damdai used it to great effect against Cammy players back when he played Guile.

It works on similar principle to the old shotos throw/uppercut o/s. I’m not sure if that’s what he went for here, or if he just happened to guess two flash kicks in a row and get lucky, but either way, it works. It’s about making your opponent guess the mixup. The theory is that if you time the flash kick properly, you’ll beat the uppercut, since flash kick has a bit more invulnerability frames than an srk. But if the opponent does nothing, then the throw mixup activates first and you throw them. If your opponent manages to land the throw first, you’ll automatically kara cancel into a flash kick, while they whiff a throw button.


It’s a combo, but it demands precise timing.

As for the throw, it’s usually a good idea to attempt a throw after cross-ups, since they often whiff depending on timing, hitboxes, and scroll. Most players do it, but you can also get baited: the enemy may purposely jump ahead of time, land before you recover from a knockdown, and perform an invulnerable move just before you mash throw. As players gain experience, they often react to a mistimed jump on their part with such moves so as to try and avoid being thrown for free.


Interesting, thanks.


Technically it’s useless to do a throw / Dragon Punch option select if the opponent does a reversal throw. It’s a myth.

In this example Guile attacks with a crossup Short and is fully charged for a Flash Kick once he lands.
The defender is in blockstun for 11 frames and is throwable on the 12th frame.
Assuming Guile does an OS back Fierce kara-cancelled into Flash Kick.
On the 12th frame, the startup of Guile’s back Fierce begins, but will not be kara-cancelled into the Flash Kick until the 3rd/4th/5th frame.

Which means if Guile attempts a throw on the 12th frame, he will not be invincible until the 15th/16th frame when the Flash Kick activates.
Guile can throw the opponent, but he can also be thrown by the opponent.
If the opponent does a perfect reversal throw on the 12th frame, the same time as Guile, then the game will toss a coin and give it 50% of the time to either Guile or the opponent.

Now let’s say the opponent does not do a perfect reversal throw and times it a little late, say on the 13th or 14th frame after blockstun. Then Guile will throw him, and the Flash Kick install will be useless.
Let’s say Guile does his throw/Flash Kick a little bit late but the opponent does a perfect reversal throw on the 12th frame. Then Guile will be thrown, also making the Flash Kick install useless.

No matter which way you look at it, installing a Flash Kick or Dragon Punch after a throw attempt is useless if the opponent does a reversal throw. You will either throw him or get thrown depending on the timing.

The Flash Kick install after a throw only works if the the opponent does something else besides a reversal throw, such as an airborne/invincible attack like a Tatsu or a Shoryu. Then the throw attempt will be kara-cancelled and the Flash Kick will kick in.

Other than that, this OS is another one of those ST myths that needs to be debunked.
All the Ryu player in that video had to do was reversal throw.


It’s about the risk vs. reward. Worst case scenario, you tech a throw and take minimal damage. Best case, they try to reversal and get countered for full damage. Middle case, they do nothing and get thrown, maybe teching, either way taking some damage. The odds are in your favor, assuming you can execute it. It’s a legitimate technique. Not a myth.


The only sensible solution to this OS is reversal throw, which if perfectly timed by both players, ends up being a 50-50 chance for both players to do damage. It’s not an advantage for either player, assuming the attacker always does a throw/dp install everytime.

Now if the attacker is doing a mixup, which is different from an option select and has nothing to do with kara cancels or installs, and forces the defender to guess if it’s going to be a throw or a dp, then it’s a good tactic.

But this topic is about OS, not mixups.


Sooo manual mixups are better than option selects. Got it.


Looks like I shut damdai up. And in the Guile thread too!!


Wait, reversal throws always win. There’s no coin tossing: frame-skipping aside, the player has two guaranteed chances of escaping the OS: reversal throw or special against the meaty and reversal throw against the throw. That’s the reason it does not work against better players unless you mix it up: they have good timing and reversal throw out of it.


option select doesn’t mean you always win.

for RPS match, if you can “execute” it, you can OS rock and paper at the same time. your opponent can still do paper to “neutralize” your OS so to speak, but OS still give you a greater risk/reward ratio like damdai said.