Guile thread


#517

@Unessential u mean wider characters, T hawk is nt wide, he is tall, thats it


#518

Guile can also anti-air Chun with his diagonal jumping fierce “ear slap”, much like Ryu can with juggle strong punches. But since it beats Chun’s aerial kicks in front of him, but not from above, if Chun doesn’t attack, you are probably going to whiff the move and be left wide open for punishment. Chun can also use her fierce punch instead (Otochun usually reacts and uses punch in air-to-air situations), which has much better priority, but even that loses to Guile’s aerial slap.


#519

Flash Kick vs Shoryuken: fast-forward up until 29:32 to see the technique. It beats reversal throws and works against several other characters too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1Iip1D7BAc
Edit: thanks to kuroppi for linking the video at ST Revival.


#520

I’m confused about how this works. A lot of times I will knock someone down and cross them up with jump short and if i somehow do it too early or don’t finish the combo I almost ALWAYS get reversal thrown. As far as I know, jump short, flash kick isn’t a blockstring of combo without cr. strong or something in the middle. I’m not sure why reversal throw or srk wouldn’t beat this unless there’s something I’m missing.


#521

It’s an option-select. Damdai used it to great effect against Cammy players back when he played Guile.

It works on similar principle to the old shotos throw/uppercut o/s. I’m not sure if that’s what he went for here, or if he just happened to guess two flash kicks in a row and get lucky, but either way, it works. It’s about making your opponent guess the mixup. The theory is that if you time the flash kick properly, you’ll beat the uppercut, since flash kick has a bit more invulnerability frames than an srk. But if the opponent does nothing, then the throw mixup activates first and you throw them. If your opponent manages to land the throw first, you’ll automatically kara cancel into a flash kick, while they whiff a throw button.


#522

It’s a combo, but it demands precise timing.

As for the throw, it’s usually a good idea to attempt a throw after cross-ups, since they often whiff depending on timing, hitboxes, and scroll. Most players do it, but you can also get baited: the enemy may purposely jump ahead of time, land before you recover from a knockdown, and perform an invulnerable move just before you mash throw. As players gain experience, they often react to a mistimed jump on their part with such moves so as to try and avoid being thrown for free.


#523

Interesting, thanks.


#524

Technically it’s useless to do a throw / Dragon Punch option select if the opponent does a reversal throw. It’s a myth.

In this example Guile attacks with a crossup Short and is fully charged for a Flash Kick once he lands.
The defender is in blockstun for 11 frames and is throwable on the 12th frame.
Assuming Guile does an OS back Fierce kara-cancelled into Flash Kick.
On the 12th frame, the startup of Guile’s back Fierce begins, but will not be kara-cancelled into the Flash Kick until the 3rd/4th/5th frame.

Which means if Guile attempts a throw on the 12th frame, he will not be invincible until the 15th/16th frame when the Flash Kick activates.
Guile can throw the opponent, but he can also be thrown by the opponent.
If the opponent does a perfect reversal throw on the 12th frame, the same time as Guile, then the game will toss a coin and give it 50% of the time to either Guile or the opponent.

Now let’s say the opponent does not do a perfect reversal throw and times it a little late, say on the 13th or 14th frame after blockstun. Then Guile will throw him, and the Flash Kick install will be useless.
Let’s say Guile does his throw/Flash Kick a little bit late but the opponent does a perfect reversal throw on the 12th frame. Then Guile will be thrown, also making the Flash Kick install useless.

No matter which way you look at it, installing a Flash Kick or Dragon Punch after a throw attempt is useless if the opponent does a reversal throw. You will either throw him or get thrown depending on the timing.

The Flash Kick install after a throw only works if the the opponent does something else besides a reversal throw, such as an airborne/invincible attack like a Tatsu or a Shoryu. Then the throw attempt will be kara-cancelled and the Flash Kick will kick in.

Other than that, this OS is another one of those ST myths that needs to be debunked.
All the Ryu player in that video had to do was reversal throw.


#525

It’s about the risk vs. reward. Worst case scenario, you tech a throw and take minimal damage. Best case, they try to reversal and get countered for full damage. Middle case, they do nothing and get thrown, maybe teching, either way taking some damage. The odds are in your favor, assuming you can execute it. It’s a legitimate technique. Not a myth.


#526

The only sensible solution to this OS is reversal throw, which if perfectly timed by both players, ends up being a 50-50 chance for both players to do damage. It’s not an advantage for either player, assuming the attacker always does a throw/dp install everytime.

Now if the attacker is doing a mixup, which is different from an option select and has nothing to do with kara cancels or installs, and forces the defender to guess if it’s going to be a throw or a dp, then it’s a good tactic.

But this topic is about OS, not mixups.


#527

Sooo manual mixups are better than option selects. Got it.


#528

Looks like I shut damdai up. And in the Guile thread too!!


#529

Wait, reversal throws always win. There’s no coin tossing: frame-skipping aside, the player has two guaranteed chances of escaping the OS: reversal throw or special against the meaty and reversal throw against the throw. That’s the reason it does not work against better players unless you mix it up: they have good timing and reversal throw out of it.


#530

option select doesn’t mean you always win.

for RPS match, if you can “execute” it, you can OS rock and paper at the same time. your opponent can still do paper to “neutralize” your OS so to speak, but OS still give you a greater risk/reward ratio like damdai said.


#531

The point never was that it will always win. Of course it loses to reversal throw, which you will end up teching in the worst case scenario. Tick throws lose to reversal throws too you know. Think of it as an augmented tick throw.

Damdai succinctly explained that in a few sentences. You guys are being dumbasses.


#532

LOL what a retard u r, u just discovered by urself some old news. I OS my dick in ur mouth n ur ass, either outcome u still get dick


#533

I think the term here is risk vs. reward. What OSs do is to help mitigate risk. It’s not necessarily a win or lose scenario, it’s about producing optimal results for your character, one of which includes a tech throw. This is not just a rock < paper < scissors scenario, it’s about how to play both rock and paper at the same time.

And there’s a difference between ‘shutting someone down’ and getting ‘ignored because you’re retarded.’


#534

I was being deliberately provocative and meant no disrespect. I just wanted damdai to clarify his earlier post because I still believe it’s a 50-50 chance in that situation as long as you reversal throw, and not the the huge reward that he was implying.


#535

And unlike one poster here, I don’t just accept as truth what a top player says about the game.
I will criticize and question it if I think it’s wrong.


#536

It’s a 100% chance (minus frameskip) to escape. You are guaranteed to escape the meaty. If you fail, then you got another chance, when he goes for the throw. And then you have a 100% chance of escaping, given you have perfect timing.

It’s an interesting technique, which has its main advantage in forcing the enemy to attempt counter throws, which are often not as easy as specials since they don’t have negative edge. But shotos, Honda, Gief, Hawk, Cammy, Fei and Dee Jay have 4 buttons for throws, which give them an acceptable chance of escaping by pianoing all those.

You must also be careful against which character you attempt this, and where. One usually does not want to get cornered by Guile or Dee Jay, for instance. Also, Honda, Hawk and Gief have strong special throws which can be used as a reversal.

Edit: forgot about Fei