Technically it’s useless to do a throw / Dragon Punch option select if the opponent does a reversal throw. It’s a myth.
In this example Guile attacks with a crossup Short and is fully charged for a Flash Kick once he lands.
The defender is in blockstun for 11 frames and is throwable on the 12th frame.
Assuming Guile does an OS back Fierce kara-cancelled into Flash Kick.
On the 12th frame, the startup of Guile’s back Fierce begins, but will not be kara-cancelled into the Flash Kick until the 3rd/4th/5th frame.
Which means if Guile attempts a throw on the 12th frame, he will not be invincible until the 15th/16th frame when the Flash Kick activates.
Guile can throw the opponent, but he can also be thrown by the opponent.
If the opponent does a perfect reversal throw on the 12th frame, the same time as Guile, then the game will toss a coin and give it 50% of the time to either Guile or the opponent.
Now let’s say the opponent does not do a perfect reversal throw and times it a little late, say on the 13th or 14th frame after blockstun. Then Guile will throw him, and the Flash Kick install will be useless.
Let’s say Guile does his throw/Flash Kick a little bit late but the opponent does a perfect reversal throw on the 12th frame. Then Guile will be thrown, also making the Flash Kick install useless.
No matter which way you look at it, installing a Flash Kick or Dragon Punch after a throw attempt is useless if the opponent does a reversal throw. You will either throw him or get thrown depending on the timing.
The Flash Kick install after a throw only works if the the opponent does something else besides a reversal throw, such as an airborne/invincible attack like a Tatsu or a Shoryu. Then the throw attempt will be kara-cancelled and the Flash Kick will kick in.
Other than that, this OS is another one of those ST myths that needs to be debunked.
All the Ryu player in that video had to do was reversal throw.
It’s about the risk vs. reward. Worst case scenario, you tech a throw and take minimal damage. Best case, they try to reversal and get countered for full damage. Middle case, they do nothing and get thrown, maybe teching, either way taking some damage. The odds are in your favor, assuming you can execute it. It’s a legitimate technique. Not a myth.
The only sensible solution to this OS is reversal throw, which if perfectly timed by both players, ends up being a 50-50 chance for both players to do damage. It’s not an advantage for either player, assuming the attacker always does a throw/dp install everytime.
Now if the attacker is doing a mixup, which is different from an option select and has nothing to do with kara cancels or installs, and forces the defender to guess if it’s going to be a throw or a dp, then it’s a good tactic.
But this topic is about OS, not mixups.
Sooo manual mixups are better than option selects. Got it.
Looks like I shut damdai up. And in the Guile thread too!!
Wait, reversal throws always win. There’s no coin tossing: frame-skipping aside, the player has two guaranteed chances of escaping the OS: reversal throw or special against the meaty and reversal throw against the throw. That’s the reason it does not work against better players unless you mix it up: they have good timing and reversal throw out of it.
option select doesn’t mean you always win.
for RPS match, if you can “execute” it, you can OS rock and paper at the same time. your opponent can still do paper to “neutralize” your OS so to speak, but OS still give you a greater risk/reward ratio like damdai said.
The point never was that it will always win. Of course it loses to reversal throw, which you will end up teching in the worst case scenario. Tick throws lose to reversal throws too you know. Think of it as an augmented tick throw.
Damdai succinctly explained that in a few sentences. You guys are being dumbasses.
LOL what a retard u r, u just discovered by urself some old news. I OS my dick in ur mouth n ur ass, either outcome u still get dick
I think the term here is risk vs. reward. What OSs do is to help mitigate risk. It’s not necessarily a win or lose scenario, it’s about producing optimal results for your character, one of which includes a tech throw. This is not just a rock < paper < scissors scenario, it’s about how to play both rock and paper at the same time.
And there’s a difference between ‘shutting someone down’ and getting ‘ignored because you’re retarded.’
I was being deliberately provocative and meant no disrespect. I just wanted damdai to clarify his earlier post because I still believe it’s a 50-50 chance in that situation as long as you reversal throw, and not the the huge reward that he was implying.
And unlike one poster here, I don’t just accept as truth what a top player says about the game.
I will criticize and question it if I think it’s wrong.
It’s a 100% chance (minus frameskip) to escape. You are guaranteed to escape the meaty. If you fail, then you got another chance, when he goes for the throw. And then you have a 100% chance of escaping, given you have perfect timing.
It’s an interesting technique, which has its main advantage in forcing the enemy to attempt counter throws, which are often not as easy as specials since they don’t have negative edge. But shotos, Honda, Gief, Hawk, Cammy, Fei and Dee Jay have 4 buttons for throws, which give them an acceptable chance of escaping by pianoing all those.
You must also be careful against which character you attempt this, and where. One usually does not want to get cornered by Guile or Dee Jay, for instance. Also, Honda, Hawk and Gief have strong special throws which can be used as a reversal.
Edit: forgot about Fei
Gief has 6 buttons for throws
I didn’t imply a huge reward. It’s in your favor because it covers 2 scenarios for the price of 1, block and reversal special.
Also, for characters with 2 kick and 2 punch throws, I don’t believe it’s possible to effectively piano them all.
While theoretically possible, it’s not practical, and shouldn’t really be mentioned.
EDIT: I just practiced a bit and it does seem possible, but I have to contort my hand in a weird way that would prevent me from doing other things quickly if the situation changed. Maybe it gets easier in practice, but I’ll stick with just pianoing fierce and strong.
I’ve ALWAYS pianoed my throw timings for characters with 2k and 2p throws. Did people really believe all this time think it was impractical? (even characters with only 2 throw buttons --chun, my main I piano my throws.)
In fact, now that I’ve had exposure to vampire savour style pushblocking, I’m better at it now than I was before.
Just use whatever works. I personally just piano 2 punch buttons, but I know some people just slide fingers across all 4 throw buttons to counterthrow. Whatever floats your boat.
I didn’t say pianoing was impractical. I said piaoning 2 punches + 2 kicks was impractical because of the button locations. In order to press each button consecutively, you must temporarily modify your natural hand position which is dangerous in such a fast paced game. But as eltrouble said, whatever works for you. Just be sure it’s actually working.
Why is there a black version of Guile? Does anyone know the origin story? Is it like how there were gonna be two Fei Long’s, but then Steve Godard made Deejay with Guiles moves so thats why theres a black Guile?