Hakan frame data, explored! (Updated)

hakan

#1

I decided to hit the lab with Hakan recently and after reading a french Hakan guide (http://www.hitcombo.com/1news/hakan-oil-ceo/), I thought that studying Hakan’s frames would be a good start. With the help of Gilley, I started counting frames and found out many interesting things… For example Hakan actually has 5 pre-jumping frames when neutral or back jumping, but 4 when jumping forward. Some of the frame data on the wiki was also missing, such as the advantage after either oil slide followup; Since I can’t edit the wiki itself, I figured it’d post it all here.

So here it is:

Hakan Frame Data

Spoiler

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/HeavenZGate/HakanFrameData.png

-I added a column on the far right indicating the number of frames to consider when going for a meaty. In the case of the slides, I included all the late frames that would result in a safe slide, +0 & up)

-As the text highlighted in red mentions, the last start-up frame is in fact the first active frame. e.g. C.HK really has 6 frames of start up, 3 active frames and 26 of recovery, for a total of 35 frames.

-All the way at the bottom are the frame advantages Hakan has after each type of knockdown. e.g. You can only attack Cody on the 70th frame after a LP Oil Rocket.

-In the case of the K slide followups, the 15 I put as an On Hit from advantage only means that the opponent recovers on the 15th frame. Meaning hitting a S.HK would be a perfect meaty and leave you at +0 on block. If your opponent were to get Counter Hit by Hakan’s S.HK (I tried mashing c.lk with Bison and would always get hit) , that would leave him at +6, and still in range for an oil rocket!

If I wanted to perform a safe slide on, say, Sagat after an Air Grab; knowing he recovers on the 72th frame and his fastest reversal comes out in 5, I can empty neutral jump (46f, thus leaving 26 frames to kill) and LP Oil Slide. Now, LP Oil Slide’s hitbox is active from the 9th until the 29th frame but is only safe (+0) on the 26th and up. Seeing as the slide will be connecting on the 26th frame, I should be at +0 frame advantage; which still puts me in a safe position.

Also here’s a list of all the other character’s relevant reversals:

Character Reverals

Spoiler

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/HeavenZGate/CharacterReversals.png

Basically, even if it is possible to land a safe slide, attempting one against a character who has a EX stocked and a reversal that has a start-up of less than 17 frames (Hakan’s recovery post-slide) is extremely risky.


#2

The next thing I decided to tackle are safe slides from the various types of knockdowns. Below is a table showing the number of frames to kill to land a safe slide (+0):

Safe Slide (+0) Frame Gap

Spoiler

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/HeavenZGate/HakanSlideLeeway.png

And to help out with the math, I made a second table with Hakan’s moves ordered from fastest to slowest:

Total frames of Hakan’s moves

Spoiler

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/HeavenZGate/HakanFastestMoves.png

So for example, If I were to HP Oil Rocket Ryu, I would have 24 frames to kill, in order to land a LK Oil Slide on the 26th frame (+0). Per the chart, if I were frame perfect, I could thus: HP Oil Rocket => Whiff Throw => LK Oil Slide; and it should be perfectly safe. But in practice it doesn’t work that way because performing the QCF motion for the slide eats up some frames and so does the slight delay before you actually whiff a normal. In my case, that extra time accounted for 7 to 10~ frames.

I had to try a variety of timings to figure out the exact impact of the QCF motion (and the fact that we’re not going to whiff moves on the first possible frame consistently).

Here are 3 set ups that worked for me (all against Ryu):
-Oiled 6HK [+23] => Whiff c.LK [-15] => LP Oil Slide. Connected on the 28th frame; +2 frame advantage. (8+2 frames unaccounted for)
-HP Oil Rocket [+24] => Whiff s.MP [-17] => LP Oil Slide. Connected on the 28th frame; +2 frame advantage. (7+2 frames unaccounted for)
-Air Grab [+45] => Whiff c.HK [-35] => LP Oil Slide. Connected on the 29th frame; +3 frame advantage. (9+3 frames unaccounted for)

Experiment with your own timings and see what works out :open_mouth:


#3

Damn bro, you’ve taken this to another level! The last findings you posted got me interested there, I’d like to find more of these +3 safe slides!


#4

Yeah, it’s pretty fun to work with numbers. And it’s easy to test out safe slides with those charts. I just found another that worked:

Front Throw [+34] => Whiff Throw [-24] => [10 frames of leeway for inputs] => HP Oil Slide. Connected on the 29th frame. +3 frame advantage!

So basically, I just remove 10 frames from the amount that needs to be killed, and find a move to fill the gap.

edit: It’s actually 13 frames of leeway. 10 frames would’ve made the slide hit on the 26th (+0)


#5

Awesome, keep em’ coming. i’ll be testing these out tonight


#6

OMG! THIS IS AWESOME!


#7

6+3+25 = 34


#8

so… we can use this to also calculate the Oil Dive setups.
BentoBox, you rock!


#9

NP!

Oh lol, that’s actually 26 frames of recovery :stuck_out_tongue:


#10

Really looking forward to seeing all the setups we find out of this, this is gold


#11

Yeah, but I’m also a bit confused by those set-ups. I believe I’ve read of a set-up beating both crouching and Ryu’s lp srk?

Ryu’s lp srk hits on the 3rd frame:
1~2f invincible, 3~4f unthrowable, 3~16f lower body invincibility, 3~30f airborne, launch, 3~4f hit cancellable

Hakan’s Oil Dive has 4 active frames, and he should only be able to grab Ryu out of his 5th SRK frame. So if the Oil Dive hitbox is out during frames 3 and 4, Hakan will get hit…
Thus meaning that the Oil Dive has to be timed so as to connect on the 5th frame, and yet it would have to be connecting on the Ryu’s 1rst wake up frame if it were
to catch a crouching Ryu.

The only other possible explanation would be to have the Oil Dive hitbox extend during the first two frames of the SRK which are not unthrowable according to the frame data, unless it is implied that the first 2 frames are invincible to -everything-, which is likely because otherwise, meaty grabs would be far too powerful and we would’ve heard about them before…

But yeah, I’ll get to dives at some point!


#12

Needs more +3 safe slides! :wink:


#13

Still stuck at work, hence why I’m still just rambling in here. Now what happens when you land a +3 slide and Oil Rocket immediately after?

Answer: Basically, the opponent can’t be holding up when waking up, as he’ll get hit by the slide otherwise. If he decides to block it, he has 3 frames to hold up before the Rocket gets him. Pretty neat. Of course, any invincible reversals beat this.

Also, I added a table of all the other character’s reversals in the OP. (Yes, I will get to more +3 safe slides :P! But BF3 is also coming out tomorrow… :x)


#14

Is +3 the slide where if you jab afterwards you beat normals and throws etc? Also you can do a neat sort-of option select after slide, a quick block then jump up airgrab means you cover reversal and if they jump you get the airgrab, pretty neat.


#15

Yeah, if they press anything during that 1 frame (between the +3 slide and the 4f jab); whether they’re holding up, pressing a button, trying to throw. They should get hit. Though because of the fact that its +3, I suspect opponents will probably mistime their counter which pretty much gives you a free oil rocket every time they block the slide (unless they’re reversal happy, of course).

Now here’s some more safe slides that worked for me…

  1. Oil Dive [+52] => LP Slide [-46] => LP Slide +3 9 frames unaccounted
  2. HP Oil Rocket [+24] => c.MP [-20]=> LP Oil Slide +3 7 frames unaccounted
  3. HP Oil Rocket [+19] => LP [-12] => HP Oil Slide +2 10 frames unaccounted
  4. MP Oil Rocket [+34] => HK [-32]=> LP Oil Slide +2 5 frames unaccounted
  5. MP Oil Rocket [+29] => Backdash [-27] => MP Oil Slide +2 * 5 frames unaccounted*
  6. LP Oil Rocket [+39] => HK [-32]=> HP Oil Slide +2 10 frames unaccounted
  7. Oiled 6HK [+18] => LP [-12]=> HP Oil Slide +3 * 9 frames unaccounted*

Now notice the discrepancies in the amount of frames that I chalked up as execution delay. I found some of these slides hard to replicate as I realized I wasn’t entirely comfortable with Hakan’s animations to know when to whiff a button. #5 was probably the most consistent set up because I could just mash :b::b: after the Rocket and it is easy to distinguish when the backdash ended hence allowing to buffer the MP slide asap. But I had the most trouble with performing say #3, because I would often press LP too early, hence it not coming out at all. I had to start looking at Hakan’s hands for a cue as to when I was out of recovery and could hence press a button.

Point being that all these slides *could *be +3 if timed right, but it wouldn’t be wise to plan anything around constantly landing them because of execution leeway. I might just have to just settle with the fact that my slides are safe.


#16

It does take a while to get used to whiffing normals, I know what you mean, it’s really hard getting used to when hakans animation ends and when you can press something, without it not coming out at all. You really have to practice that junk.

These are great though I’ll be messing around with them tonight for sure.


#17

I like sweeping, and then whiff crouching jab, and then light oil slide.


#18

Interesting. LP slide has the same number of frames as neutral jump. So against Sagat or Guile (among others with slow wake-ups) lp slide, lk dive is uncrouchable. Plus, you get meter.


#19

Awesome Work, I will study this and the Reversal list is something really useful.

I would like to know if someone has the number of frames in the jump of every character. Someone got this list?
I already tried to find but it is really frustating.^^

Thanks.