Haohmaru isn't low tier in K

haohmaru

#1

I personally feel that some people just don’t know how to play him. You poke, and you poke somemore. It doesn’t matter that he doesn’t have a good combo that starts with C.LK. He has his S.MK into Heavy Gougetsuzan for close range punish.

His heavy slash is over rated, yet under rated by people (huh???). If people are baiting you, don’t get baited. Sounds simple? Who can punish a blocked Heavy Slash at heavy slash distance? A discussion about how a heavy slash is too slow is useless, it all depends on how well you read your opponent. if you guess he isn’t going to roll or RC something, HS. It’s not so slow that people can see it coming a mile away. And

We don’t have to go to basics here. A lot of characters have good anti air. Haohmaru has an average one. So let’s skip that. He doesn’t have a good, comboable fireball, so let’s skip that. but what he does have, are pokes that should be used over and over again. The way a Haohmaru should poke should put non-psychic people in fear because it is relentless. In K, when you trap someone in the corner, you poke. When you aren’t Poking, you are tapping back. With these two combined, you will have occasional JDs in between pokes that lead to more pokes. And you poke and poke and poke. When someone gets too near, you hop back. And Poke. If they turtle, you WALK forward slowly, and you poke some more.

Poke with what? With what was mentioned. S.MP. S.HP. the occasional S.HK. Short jump HS. It’s the pressure that counts. It’s rushdown without the Rushdown.

Anything comes your way to push you away, JD it. Tell them you’re standing rooted at that spot and you ain’t movin’.

The key to this all is intelligent poking. You aren’t ryu going in for LKLKLKMKFIREBALL. You aren’t Geese going in for you Guard crush combos. You aren’t Rolento doing KKK MP C.LK C.MK.

You are Haohmaru. He moves for no one. That’s why HIS face is on K Groove.


Let’s talk some matches for haoh on K.

Sakura, a FULL RC A- Sakura has almost nothing on K Haoh. Some of you may beg to differ when the CC comes in, but that’s just it, the CC. Other than that, what does Sakura have on Haoh? Both of you will be poking, she has her distance, you have yours. It’s now a matter of who is better at zoning. Her S.HK? Her RC Hurricane? Her jump-in? What?

A Bison. What does he have on Haoh? his pokes? What pokes? Your range is longer than his. No Bison is stupid to random jump, no bison is stupid to do a full psycho crusher at any character. So what now?

K-Sagat. ok NOW we have a problem. but again it is a problem of zoning. If the opponent’s Sagat Knows where to jump and JD Haoh’s single hit moves, then don’t be there for him to jump in at? I see people stubbornly trying to do something when they should be hopping BACK. Then they complain ‘Haoh Sucks! He couldn’t do anything back there!’ No Sagat would random fireball a K Haoh, it’s just free life.

K Blanka - Another zoning game.

Yes, K Blanka and Sagat have very powerful short Jump attacks, but no one asked you not to block high.

Sagat doing S.HP continuously? You don’t know what to do? learnt to find the distance and C.HP his FIST. Your sword arc should hit it clean. it’s safer than his DP. It recovers faster if you miss. (Note when i type this I am thinking of Haoh Trapped in a Corner, with Sagat Whiffeing HPs to keep him there)


Sure, people might be thinking, this is a generic strat for EVERYONE. but no. You can’t do it with ryu, his range is shorter than Sagat’s or Blanka’s. You can’t do it with Eagle, he has different types of pokes that aren’t as fast and are different in use.

What Haohmaru has , in the end is STILL his Heavy Slash. As Underrated or Overrated it is. It IS his tool, and the fact that it’s presence is there is what makes the opponent’s reaction’s to him different. So you play on that.

When people start getting complacent and play footsies with you, you jump back and show them you have that Heavy Slash, continuously make them remember it’s there. It’s now a game of hitting their body, blocked or not. whatever you have to do to just get into contact with them.

Don’t think of it as a game of Guard breaking. It is not a game of damage. It is a Game of TAG. And you just have to keep tagging him. You have to just keep hitting him SOMEHOW. The thing is the Guard bar stops moving once a character get’s hit right? Now you have to go to the ends of the earth to just get that guard bar down. Even if you have to jump all the way back and throw a fireball to throw him off only to run forward and Tag him ONCE with a C.LP BLOCKED you’ve done your job.

When this is natural for you, eventually you’ll work it into your Haohmaru play, and somehow the damage just accumulates. Learn to gauge the two types of Punish moves. Who else besides haohmaru can punish someone severely from half a screen away?

And when he makes a Mistake Right In Front Of You, don’t Throw him for damage, S.MK into heavy Gougetsuzan. THAT’s damage. Not the LKLPLight Gougetsuzan crap.

And JD. JDing is so important. It’s his means of staying rooted. He has three basic needs.

Short Jump
Run
Stay Rooted.

Only k groove gives you this.

He doesn’t need to roll at all. If you want to escape corner traps, remember you have JD into Pokes.

That’s all I have now considering I’m just typing non-stop without stopping to think, so i’d be missing out some stuff like pther match ups etc. Does anyone else have something to say for haoh in K?


#2

he’s mid tier, and i think his best groove is a, not k.


#3

I think he’s really good in K actually. Remember that Haoh’s game is all about guard breaking or dizzying you in the first place. When he’s raged in K-groove, that capability gets REALLY jacked up. He loses his dash, but with his 2 frame (!) d.LP, his run becomes just as deadly. Can’t low jump when you’re in A too.

If you really love turtling, random activation that much however, then by all means go for A-groove. He still has all the same normals and range etc… I still think he’s stronger in K or P though.


#4

By Crimson Disaster :

An opponent doesn’t need to wait for Haoh to come to them. Forcing someone to come to you is not the same as waiting for someone come to you. Guile forces you to come to him, but he isn’t waiting for you to do so, he’s keeping you out. That’s not letting or waiting for his opponent to come to him, that’s forcing his opponent to come to him. Same with Sagat shooting short Tiger Shots at Cammy, or doing s.shorts against anybody.

In Haoh’s case, he has nothing to discourage people from attacking him more or less freely, other than random fierces, which get super’d for free if blocked, as noted by Buktooth (something like -18 on block? You get the point) All Haoh has is frustration value- people get pissed and just walk into more jabs/strongs and eventually run into fierces. At least Vega has some offensive options…

Haoh’s not unusable, but he’s not particularly good, either.

I need to know first, Crimson, what Groove haoh are you talking about, and what is your playing style with him and what groove do you use when you play him?


#5

I’d say K over A by a bit. A Haoh turtles a lot better and has the threat of AA CC, plus a means of doing some actual damage. But yeah, K Haoh breaks guard a lot better and has a better ground game with JD. And K Haoh has a reason to move forward, as opposed to constantly backwards motion…

At point blank, c.short, c.jab XX strong DP sets up a nice crossup with sj.forward. Something to keep in mind, I guess.

As stated on Buk’s thread, several characters can super a blocked s.fierce for free. It’s still a nice weapon but not something you should expect to hit much.

A Sakura can kick Haoh in the face. Her s.RH outranges everything except Haoh s.fierce. He can s.fierce a bit more freely, though, since no L3 super to punish the fierce on block. Still, she can win the poking game simply because for every s.RH she hits, Haoh needs 2 s.strongs to keep up. RC fireball helps too, and of course, random CC = 40% gone. She doesn’t have to work that hard to get into range to make you block a random CC, really.
Can Haoh duck RH hurricane kick? Forgot.
Haoh can discourage dive kicks by fiercing Sakura once or twice, though :evil: But Sakura should really be kicking K Groovers and making them worry about their flashing guard bar and the threat of random activates, not wasting time with dive kicks.

Can’t think straight, got classes tomorrow. Will talk more, gotta love the big-haired swordsman. Even if Hibiki is a better character.

Edit:
I play Haoh in K, A, and C, in that order. C Haoh is mostly for battery purposes, plus Alpha Counters to keep people from rushing me down too much.
K Haoh, I mostly poke and stuff, and try to get initiative to run in with jabs or lj.fierces and stuff.
A, turtle like I’m from EC :lol: Mostly poking and moving backwards as necessary to keep the distances managable. His dash and jump are good for getting away from corners, sometimes, so mostly my A Haoh is poke and runaway.


#6

Gosh it’s late at your side!
Sweet dreams ok.


Yes we do have different styles.

Hmm. I play K Haoh only. And for Characters that have no reliable damaging AAs, I just Jump in and JD on descent. It’s really a problem for Sak because she has nothing for Haoh’s Jump but an RCed move or C.HP. Usually they won’t RC anything because Except her DP RC, the rest have long recovery from the first JDed move. So…they…umm…I dunnoe I can’t find a solution for Sakura here actually. When they see me they suddenly try and run and build meter.

And I actually hit with my S.HP a lot lot more than players I see, because I found his correct slashing distance. I’m not playing against scrubby players, it’s just that since I play in K more, i get to run in + Heavy Slash at weird moments. I also get to fake it. Since U play in A as well as K, maybe you don’t do that too often. At the correct distance, Sagat can’t punish it too. And anyway what I mentioned in the thread still holds, only those few characters, with Level 3, at reasonable distance, will hit him for free. And even then only those who can afford to wait on their Meter. The key word is ‘Reasonable’ as in, if I did it at a range where I should have thrown my Medium Slash instead.

Since you have a different style of playing, hmm, I wonder how you’d do if you try to be more aggresive with him, in K? because There is no way I can do what I do now in A. I don’t turtle, I really Zone and JD that Shit down. It’s like a Game of tag I mentioned previously.

It’s hard to find someone who plays Haoh in K, look at how few people there are in this Haoh thread alone :frowning: So I’m kinda happy you play him in K too. :slight_smile:


#7

to kcxj: in p groove it sounds like he could be nasty but i’ve never played one.

one reason i like haoh in a over k is because i always feel he has to be defensive. with roll and alpha counter, you can get away from a rush, while in k he tends to get steamrolled. and he builds meter at a decent pace. once that a bar is filled, he becomes a huge threat. his a groove is really damaging and whenever i use it people are shocked at the damage.

and the main reason i don’t like him in k is his supers are almost impossible to land. in k, it seems you have to have several options to land a super before time runs out. haoh can’t really link anything into super consistently.

btw, when the game first came out, i played a turtle ass c haoh that pissed everyone off. :lol:


#8

Hi MCTek

Funny I don’t seem to have a problem doing C.HP on Sagat. Timing is tight maybe? but yes I do JD instead of AA sometimes, so maybe I’m just lucky those times I hit? Hmmm, I think I know why, it depends from where Sagat is jumping at me. I can’t remember exactly what it is because it’s been worked into gameplay…(it happens to me, I forgot how to say it out, I have to watch myself play first before I can describe it, because it’s already based on instinct now :stuck_out_tongue: sorry Gomen Gomen)

It’s something like this. If he’s jumping in at you from…I think, within your MP range, you can Anti Air him. No Problem. If He’s jumping slightly from Further away, I JD him because after he Kicks me, I will JD Down ward anyway upon his landing and react from there. He will be too far away to mess up with any throwing or what nots, so it’s ok for my distance still. And he can’t jump again because he will be AA’d by C.HP. if he C.HP me and I don’t JD it, I will be out of range for him, but within range for him not to jump anymore also.

I could be remembering wrong though, but I play enough so that people don’t usually jump in normally at me at a cetain range anymore, because they know they’ll get punished.

but oh yes, i remember something I do out of instinct now, If I see him Jumping toward me, sometimes I do a backdash and poke my MP or HS even. I think this is when I don’t want to JD and want to add in some Guard Damage instead.

Awww heck, someone tape down my matches!!! I can’t remember anything!

Oh ok, so my answer to you is, no Sagat cannot do it all day, when at the right range, C.HP is effective against Sagat. When at the ‘Wrong’ range, You can’t C.HP it, but all he can do is Kick you and land slightly further away, at most do a C.MK into Ground Tiger. Which if you decide not to JD, will Put you far enough to AA him if he jumps from that range. Which menas, i no repeat performance unless he walks back just to jump at you again. but when he walks back… I think i would instinctively follow him a bit.

Ok I’m just blabbering now. :smiley:


#9

I’m not going to take credit for this, because it’s my friend Savath who plays Haohmaru as his main character, but P-Haohmaru is the strongest Haohmaru because he has perfect anti-air.

d.MK +3/+3
4/8/11

This move is ridiculous. A four frame d.MK that hits mad meaty and gives frame advantage to boot?

I can’t randomly jump in on P-Haohmaru ever because of the following option select he can do:

-(opponent jumps), tap forward, meaty d.MK

If I attacked, I get parried and eat tripguard meaty d.MK, link d.LP xx LEVEL FUCKING 3 SUPER.

If I empty jumped and tried to throw, I still eat meaty d.MK.

If I empty jumped and just blocked, then Haoh just does d.HP on me instead. He can still make me block that meaty d.MK and all the follow-up attacks he can do after with the +8 or whatever he gets too.

Can’t empty jump in and DP as you land either. Remember the d.MK is already out by the time you hit the ground. You’ll be forced to block or you’ll take the hit anyway because of the 2 frame recovery you have from every jump.

P-Haoh is cheap. :mad:


#10

That is SO COOL

It’s really fit’s Haoh’s Character.

‘I’m gonna do it, and there’s nothing you’re going to do to stop me from doing it, and if you try, you’ll fail, I’d have done it, and you’re dead.’


#11

broken ass p groove. :mad:


#12

Wow, low forward was that good? Never used it that much before. Might have to try that out one day.


#13

Did anyone mention the incredible lag on Haoh’s S.Strong (one of his best pokes)? He misses that, it’s free damage and lot’s of damage if a super is involved. Hibiki can punish S.Strong from like 3/4 screen away…

Haohmaru has many problems, which will always prevent him from being real good.

Vega, Hibiki, Cammy, Blanka and Sagat own Haohmaru for free.
If I’m in K, I will willingly block 2 or 3 jabs so I can JD the S.Strong, get super then punish with poke XX lvl3. Actually K and P groove just own Haoh.
His supers are almost useless outside of combos. I know he does lot’s of damage without them but still not lvl3 damage.
He is way to predictable. So are some top tiers but they are good enough that it doesn’t matter sometimes…


#14

Hmmm, it’s unfortunate that the people in your area play him so predictably…


#15

Word.


#16

Another Word.

what?


#17

:lol: I’m sayin’ I agree with you!


#18

OH!

HAHahAHahahha

And a good haohmaru day to all of you :smiley:


#19

Sorry did I miss something? When did I say people in my area play him predictably? I said he’s a predictable character. In order to effectively use him effectively, you have to use his limited resources i.e. poking/zoning. That’s it. Yea there are other characters which can be summed up similarly, but they are much better at it. Actually pretty much every character that plays the same type of game as Haohmaru, is better.


#20

Frankly, i’m not sure if you missed anything.

The fact remains that I do not know what kind of Haohmaru you have fought against, and you don’t know the kind of Haohmaru I have seen.

But one thing is for sure, Haohmaru may have limited resources to some, but in K groove, to some others, it’s all he needs to confuse people. I have been in games where he plays mixups and rushdowns, and it’s over before it reaches the 900 timer. Simply because of Rushdown + JD + his unique set of pokes.

I need to know then, before we can further this discussion, what is the best haohmaru you have seen so far. What did he do, what did he not do, perhaps from there we can all learn something.

If he did his poking/zoning all day, did he bother to jump back and fireball to start his pressure? Or jump back and fake it? Etc.

The tools are all there.