Hard vs Soft Knockdowns


#1

Whenever I watch Dr. Doom get into his shenanigans I’m kind of amazed at the amount of times it looks like you can relaunch someone from the ground?

How?

I mean I’m not new to fighting games, and I understand there is a difference between hard and soft knockdowns, but I must have read wrong somewhere because I thought a hard knockdown means you could OTG them (once per combo), and a soft knockdown means they can techroll out of it, ending the combo. This is incorrect I think, can someone fill me in on the details between the two?

How does Doom relaunch so many times by himself?


#2

Hard knockdowns allow you to OTG an opponent, while soft knockdowns allow you to only juggle them. You get an unlimited amount of times to OTG an opponent, but you’re only allowed 1 wall bounce and ground bounce per combo unless you use specific moves like Dante’s Sky Dance to reset the wall bounce or ground bounce count. Doom’s footdive causes a hard knockdown.


#3

So you can do the SAME OTG as long as the hitstun doesn’t scale back too far?

Maybe I’m mixing up 1 OTG per combo with 1 ground/wall bounce per combo. When using Frank his qcf+:h: axe is an OTG, but if I try it again they just roll after taking the hit.


#4

Yeah, you can OTG for as long as the hitstun scaling allows it, unless the OTG move causes a wall bounce or ground bounce in which you can only OTG with that specific move once. Frank’s axe causes a ground bounce which is why you can only OTG with it once.


#5

This is what I didn’t realize I think.

Soft knockdown: they can roll out of - combo over - correct?


#6

Yup, soft knockdown means they can roll right out of it upon hitting the ground.


#7

Soft knockdown is auto tech, you don’t actually have a choice not to tech, just how you tech. A lot grounded moves look like knockdowns, but aren’t like Morrigan’s Shadow Blade - it forces air tech, but hit low enough you’ll hit the ground and tech like it’s a soft-knockdown instead.


#8

Soft knockdown: They won’t be able to tech in the air, but they will automatically tech when they hit the ground.
Hard knockdown: They still won’t be able to tech in the air, but after they land they will be in a grounded state where they will be able to be OTG’d. If they haven’t been OTG’d after a set period of time, they’ll automatically tech.


#9

Correct me if I am wrong, but Soft knockdown does not necessarily mean the combo is over, just you have to hit them before they touch the ground…


#10

Does the set period of time that they are on the ground after a hard knockdown vary from move to move?


#11

Hard Penises vs Soft Penises LETS GO!!!


#12

Yes, different moves have different Hard knockdown times.

However, all flying screen jS have the same time.


#13

yes your correct zero’s buster causes a soft knockdown but you can follow up with lots of things like LL or assist etc.


#14

Raikosen is also soft kd

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#15

So a hard knockdown and a soft knockdown are completely different than a ground bounce?

If i am allowed one wall bounce and one ground bounce to each combo - is it possible to replace one with the other? In other words can i have 2 wall bounces instead?

If youre given an unlimited amount of OTG then wouldnt that mean you can pretty much abc, j.abcs, otg assist then rinse and repeat?

I am obviously not really understanding how how all of this works. Does anyone know if there is an in depth explanation of the juggling system? I have been trying to create my own combos but i dont know much concerning move and hit properties. Considering my lack of knowledge it may just seem to turn out that certain combos i am trying cant be achieved at all and i want to know why.

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#16

You can’t trade your wall bounces and ground bounces. You only get one of each. There are some exceptions to this, however. There are some moves that cause a forced ground bounce (which means that they’ll use your ground bounce if you haven’t used it already, but they’ll still cause a ground bounce regardless of whether you’ve used one or not) like Nova’s Centurian Rush H or a Down TAC, and there are some moves that reset the ground bounce count like Dante’s Sky Dance. The same thing doesn’t apply to wall bounces though. You only get one wall bounce. The only way to wallbounce again when you’ve already done one is with a side TAC.

Ground bounces are not completely unrelated to hard and soft knockdowns. There are essentially two types of ground bounces: hard ground bounces and soft ground bounces. With a hard ground bounce, after they bounce once, they’ll go into a hard knockdown state. If you hit someone with a hard ground bounce move after you’ve already used a ground bounce, it will skip the ground bounce and just go straight into a hard knockdown. With a soft ground bounce, they’ll bounce once, but as soon as they touch the ground again they’ll get up (not unlike a soft knockdown). If you hit someone with a soft ground bounce after you’ve already used a ground bounce, they’ll just get up as soon as they touch the ground. If your OTG causes soft groundbounce (like Frank’s hammer) then hitting them with it twice will make them get up as soon as you hit them.

The reason why you can’t just do (Magic Series --> OTG) x infinity is because of a little mechanic called hitstun deterioration. As time progresses in your combo, the amount of hitstun that your attacks do will gradually decrease. For example, let’s say that move A has 3 frames of startup and 10 frames of hitsun (meaning when you’re hit by it you can’t move for 10 frames) and move B has 5 frames of startup. If this is the case, then A can combo into B because the attack starts before hitstun ends. However, as the combo continues A’s hitsun will decrease bit by bit. Let’s say that you want to combo A into B late in the combo, and A now only has 4 frames of hitstun. The combo doesn’t work anymore because A’s hitstun will finish before you can hit them with B.


#17

Everyone started talking about hard vs. soft knockdown, but the OP’s original question really has nothing to do with hard vs. soft knockdown. He wanted to know why Doom can get so many re-launches.

It’s because Doom just happens to have a few good moves with low hitstun deterioration that can be looped together. Fierce / Special moves don’t deteriorate combos very much, which is why Doom’s corner combo (st. H, launcher, j.M, H footdive -> s footdive) can be looped so many times. It seems like doom’s J. M has a lot of untechable time (it’s good at keeping the juggle going)

so basically if you want to understand Doom’s corner loop read on the SRK wiki about hitstun deterioration, NOT about hard vs. soft knockdown. Those things don’t matter as much, although the combo does use hard knockdowns.

Basically if you see a combo going on for a very long time, it’s probably because fierce attacks, launcher attacks and some special moves prevent the opponent from dropping out of combos to a certain extent.