Ok overall not just meaning combos but the characters and winning with them who is the hardest top 6?
i dont know about the hardest top 6. but dhalsim is a player not easily mastered, but who is incredibly dangerous. its also hard to win with dan because hes so bad.
Rose is up there too.
Sakura takes a lot of time as well, you can’t muscle her around like you did in Alpha 2 and 3.
in terms of technicality and execution:
In terms of how bad a character is:
I think dhalsim is the hardest… when you watch a really good sim go to work at first you think it seems easy, and you think why dont i just pick up sim. Then when you try to emulate that kind of stuff you get fucking raped. Playing as sim and actually knowing what your doing is one of the hardest things in the game. You cant blindly throw out limbs with sim and expect to win, and you really have to balance your zoning game and agression really well.
Top 6 in order:
I’m going to go with; dan, vega, rose and guile. Then maybe one step up you have characters like sakura and fei long… guess that’s my rough “6 hardest characters to win with”.
c.vipers hard to learn but I assume this topic is who’s hardest to win with if you actually know how to play the character. And dhalsim isn’t as hard as people in here are making out.
I started playing him last week and have a 50% win rate with him in g1.
Now sure you can use the argument > 50% of people in g1 suck… but then assuming you share this view then I don’t see how you can argue sim is hard.
Nobody mentioned Gen…arguably the most execution intensive character in this game
For once, I am going to actually suggest looking at a tier list. When a good list is formed with 1) a good analysis on what tools are available inside each characters tool box (normals, specials, anti-airs, accessibility AKA execution, reach, priority, speed, etc, etc, etc.) 2) a lot of analysis on how individual match ups should wind up on paper after looking at said toolset vs. toolset and 3) a lot of analysis of actual real world outcomes of said match ups and training mode when pitting toolset against toolset – then you get a good, but not perfect, theory on who has the hardest time pulling wins. Not just “who dominates the cast”.
The lists can be wrong, but that’s why we have an edit button.
If you ask individuals, your answer is gonna get muddied by bias. People have to be, because they only know their own personal hardships when playing the game. For example: I’ll never, ever claim Blanka is an easy win. In my environment, he’s fucking crippled for a variety of reasons. Partially rationale game-design related issues, partially my own personal shortcomings in play. To someone else that gets whomped by him constantly, however, they probably think I am crazy. Again, their opinion is shaped off of their own game-design related theories and their own skill issues. Who is correct here?
For once, tier lists are good at answering something on paper. Just my 2 cents.
Gen’s learning curve may be steeper than most, but once you’ve learnt him he’s been shown to be pretty tournament viable. In other words, not one of the hardest characters to win with.
Dhalsim is super easy to win with against dudes who don’t know the match-up. Fireball and s.fierce, a little b+RH in the mix… prolly enough for the win. But try taking your Sim out to a local session against dudes who really know the match-up, THEN make the claim that Sim isn’t all that hard to win with.
edit: also, who has proven Gen tourney viable? Jibbo and Yeb and… ? Given the fact that you can count the winning Gen’s on one hand, you could easily argue that those are really good players who are winning in spite of their character’s difficulty.
He seems to get good tournament results from people that use him though.
edit: pretty much, yeah - to a far greater extent than say rose, dan, vega etc. and this thread is called “hardest characters to win with in sf4”, not “what characters aren’t top tier”.
edit2: then using your argument we can say seth is obviously one of the worst characters in the game because you can count the number of good seth players on one hand, no?
I think it’s funny that you guys named Sakura, Guile, and Dhalsim…and those are 3 of my favorite characters to play with in SF4.
I wouldn’t necessarily say that it’s hard to win with Dhalsim, but you have to be extremely careful not to get predictable with him, whilst trying balance yourself to apply pressure when you can, but mostly playing defense and setting up a zone. Dhalsim will never win by combo-ing his character to death like Sakura can. Sim to let the match come to him and chip away at the opponent.
Sakura is hard to win with, but not in the same way Sim. Sakura can mix you up with her combos, but that’s really the only thing that Sakura can do better than a lot of other characters in SF4.
Dan’s definitely in the running for the number last spot. Every tier list has the most popular characters at 7-3 against Dan (Outside of Ken, tee hee). On the other end of things, a LOT of people don’t know the matchup, so I’m not sure how that would go. If you’re planning on playing online, using Dan isn’t a horribly self-destructive experience. I got to G1 with very little trouble, so mopping up the average player isn’t tough if you know what you’re doing. He’s definitely got a very light learning curve depending on your past experience.
Once you’re matched with any player that knows the matchup, however, then you really start to see his shortcomings come through, even if you’re doing everything right.
Yeah, I nominated my main for hardest character to win with. That’s how I roll.
It’s Dan. Definitely Dan.
Lot’s of horrible biased opinions and advice here. The tier lists, although they are opinion, should help you answer this question. The op states he is not specifically talking about how hard the execution of a character is, which means he basically wants to know which characters lose the most (which hopefully will indiciate that these are the “hardest characters to win with”).
If we use the japanese as an example, someone posted a list of the most winningest characters in the japanese tournaments. (Edit: Made an error. This list includes data from tournaments worldwide)
- C Viper
- E Honda
- El Fuerte
These were tallied by giving three points for a 1st place result in a tournament, two points for 2nd place, and one for 3rd.
The Japanese are serious about their gaming, and they choose their characters mainly based upon who has the best options to win with. This is why the top 50 grandmasters in Japan are mainly Sagats.
So using this list the most difficult characters to win would be
- El Fuerte
But this is not necessarily true. Add in the tier lists with this tallying of actual victories in tournaments and you can get a good idea of what are the most difficult characters to win with on a consistent basis. Sure if you go on xbox live and play with el fuerte you can dominate most of the people on there, but thats just because they have no idea how to play the matchup. In tournament situations (and i’m talking about high level japanese play), Fuerte is one of the hardest to consistently win with, which is why not many people play him (nearly all his moves are unsafe).
Yes this didn’t include the console characters but if you use the tier list you can make an approximate estimation with that. Below are the top 6 worst characters according to the tier list.
- El Fuerte
I don’t necessarily agree with this tier list I found, but lets just use it for arguments sake. Now lets first match up who we found on both lists. Vega and El Fuerte both show up again. I also seriously don’t agree with gen being fourth worst. So adding all these together we can come up with a list:
Top 6 hardest characters to win with in Street Fighter 4
2. El Fuerte
5. Cammy (I don’t agree necessarily with this either, I would probably put Rose here if I use my own personal bias)
6. Gen (I would also change this one with my own personal bias, putting in Guile instead) **
So this list means really nothing. Not scientific at all, but I tried to not use opinion and instead used other people’s works to come up with some sort of list. But if people check their win/loss percentages on xbox there is a good chance you have a great winning record against those six
So you’ve come up with a list that includes 4 console characters… that’s what happens when you take (5 month old) data from a country that has the majority of it’s tournaments and competition on the arcade version. Data isn’t really accurate. Also elf, despite what people say, does seem to be making some headway in tournaments… much more than I would expect from “one of the worst characters in the game” at any rate.
Wow, man. That’s just a tier list. I can whoop anyone’s ass with Dan, lol. Actually I think any character is hard to win with if you aren’t good with them. Bison (Dictator) is hard for me to win with because I suck with him. And so is Abel, Rufus, Vega, etc.
Basically any character I don’t play with is hard for me to win with. The hardest character for “me” to win with is Gen because I use him the least out of everyone else in the game so I have no idea what to go with Gen.
All I’m saying is, it all depends on the person. I’m sure Viper is also hard for many people to win with but she’s nowhere on that list of the “most difficult” and “top hardest” characters to win with.
“It all depends on your skill - triumph or die!”