Have we figured out Doom?

dr-doom

#1

So I haven’t seen any new Doom technology in quite some time. It’s been pretty bland lately. Other than finding new combos/resets and further understanding how to handle/tackle different matchups what else is there to learn? Due to Doom being a highly popular character I’d say we’ve cracked his shell relatively fast. I’d also say we’ve already tapped/uncovered about 88-90% of his potential. What else is there to learn or do? (Other than improve your overall game, practice matchups, and apply all these strategies we’ve learned, etc.)

So does anyone agree or disagree? Comments are welcome.


#2

I think the biggest goal right now is to get down the dash cancelling to get around advancing guard.I dont see any dooms using it.Clock is attempting to use it right now but he still cant get the confirm to tell him whether or not to do the combo or to Dash cancel.In a couple of recent videos he will do cr.L, cr.H then dash cancel it even though it already hit.He just couldnt tell if advancing guard was coming or if he got a hit.I’m having this problem too, but its ok when you have lockdown assist.

Other than that, utilizing combos that end in resets into air throw for 50/50’s I guess.I would probably only use them outside the corner though as Doom gets way too much damage in the corner.

Maybe theres some potential in his flight?


#3

Doom was better in mvc2 lol jk… But its to early to tell if a character is at there top potential or not… give it a year or two… Iceman was top tier with guile/cammy assist in the early days of mvc2 things change


#4

Doom has way too many tools to say that we’ve cracked most of what he has to offer. His main issue will pretty much always be the fact that he can’t cancel his dash into normals which limits his ability to pressure people with tight block strings in the same way that other high tiers do. It forces him to kinda commit to zoning or rushing in a way that a character like Magneto or Wesker doesn’t necessarily have to do as much (unless we figure out some dash cancel technique without assist that fixes this). Yet…it’s still better than a character like say Dormammu who has the same issue but can’t even cancel their dash into normals (the tradeoff being having special moves and supers that are more threatning on point).

The situation can be remedied a bit immediately by playing Doom on point with strong assists but then you’re missing out on his sick assists for your point. On my team of Dante/X23/Doom, Doom easily has the best assists of the 3 and both Dante and X23 benefit a lot from Doom’s beam assist so I’ve kinda just forced myself to learn how to use him on point with XF ready incase I didn’t already use it with X23 and just clean up shop with it. He gets a lot of interesting benefits when he’s stocked with XF3 or has it in use.

That’s basically what Clockwork is trying to put together but the only thing he’s really got down is something that starts off a 15 frame start up normal. I’m sure there’s plenty of stuff we’re not thinking of that we could do with Doom even without an assist but for right now Doom’s assists are so strong as it is that until the game really starts to get figured out someone who is good with their first 2 and makes strong use of Doom’s assists can do well in tourneys.

For people who are trying to play Doom on point…yeah there’s still a lot to learn when you’re trying to compete with characters that can do stuff that seems more consistent pressure wise at tourneys like Wesker or Magneto. If you’re like me and have him mostly as assistance for your point and secondary characters then for now I’m fine just kinda knowing enough about him to get him to clean up the scraps of a team with XF. His SJ forwards or backwards (preferably backwards) ADDF game is really strong because it allows him to pressure with a 2 hit normal that can break through XF guard cancels if they guard cancel on the first hit and since it’s 2 hits you can create really dirty high low games with cancelling the first hit of M by pressing M again and then going for a c.L. Creates a literal 50/50 high low game where if they block high or low too long for even a split second they’ll get hit and put in a combo. It’s small tricks like that that I really haven’t seen even of most of the tournament footage of Dooms out there and it’s the little things like that that people need to put together to make Doom’s offense on point more fearsome when he has no more points to assist. Which of course that same pressure when backed with assists is more fearsome.

I guarantee you once some high level Japanese players put some shit together with Doom you’ll see shit you’ve never seen before. He’s the kind of open ended character for potential like that.

**The general magic of Dr.Doom is he’s one of or if not probably the ONLY character in the game where you can put him in any spot on the team and he has the capability of doing something right. ** Point with assists, anchor backing up points with ANY of his assists, in the middle, inbetween…Doom always has something he can do that can significantly benefit a team no matter where he is. Which can’t be said about quite a few of the other characters in the game.

On the c.L, c.H confirm thing I’ve been trying to practice in training mode hit confirming a block or hit reliably since you you can piano OS the string any way so it only comes out on a hit or block and get a very brief c.L whiff if you don’t make contact. In a serious match I still go for my c.L, s.M confirm most of the time becuase I’m used to the year long confirm it gives you but c.L, c.H has a bit more range and with learning to confirm the hit or block will make it viable enough. I figure his s.M and s.H’s are probably good for giving you more time to pass through advance guards since they are double hit normals so I might still end up using s.M sometimes at closer range just to get a longer block string/hit confirm.


#5

There’s a huge difference between MvC2 early on and fighting games in general now, especially with the creation of youtube and the increase in streaming/availability in information. So… yeah you can’t compare then to today.

@ DevilJin, as much as I’d like to agree, I foresee the opposite. I don’t think we’ll find anything really game changing for Doom in the next few months or ever probably from this point on (and if we do, that’d be incredibly fortunate). I’m pretty sure we’ve more than scratched the surface already and I hope that last 10% of undiscovered potential improves him dramatically. I can’t really speculate or anything but this is my theory.


#6

C’mon now what sort of attitude is that Korrr? I’d say 90% of stuff in fighting games gets figured out in the first 6 months, but its that last 10% thats often the most game changing and takes longer to get discovered/perfected. Thanks to the internet that stuff will come even sooner, but I hardly think the character is solved already.

I mean just look at a a character like Akuma who’s ‘vortex’ took a good year to flesh out and become common knowledge.Thats something that really wasnt obvious at the beginning.

The only thing stale to me about doom at the moment is his combo potential (his actual combos look freaking cool, but you only really need two Bnb’s and you’re set) I dont think well be able to squeeze much more out of him in this regard.Those last two bnbs that guy posted in the combo thread look like the max potential bnbs as they do the two things you want in a combo:

1:Carry your opponent to the corner no matter where you are on the screen.

2: they do above average damage(around 800k).

I agree sometimes it feels as though youve hit a brick wall with Doom.Just keep playing him though and eventually through random stuff happening in matches, trial and error and replaying situations stuff will evolve.


#7

Well then name some characters that you definitely feel like we will see some crazy new stuff out of. I can almost guarantee you Doom has as much potential for new shit as those characters. There’s quite a few dry out of the box characters in this game (Wolverine and Sentinel as examples) where you just know due to their limited options for offense on point you won’t see a ton more technology out of them. Any character with a lot of cancelling and movement techniques like Doom always end up changing vastly in their play style as time moves on.

I think the main problem with Doom right now is that people are spending too much time squeezing out his combos and trying to get the most out of him once he lands something because they love Doom and he rocks and his combos do damage and blah Yeah…that’s not winning tournaments. Strats and mix ups are how you open people up to land those combos to begin with and Doom has a lot of potential to create offense especially with assists due to his open ended movement and unique ability to dash through advance guards that we need to be more creative with. Instead of worrying about how many M and M’s and boot dives we can put in his combos. I don’t even look in the combo thread anymore because there’s nothing there that really teaches you how to be a better Doom player. It just has what you need to do combo videos at your house.

If there’s people (including myself) that just found out that Wolverine has a combo that actually requires execution Doom has a while to go himself in potential.

The main reason overall why you’re not seeing as much of Doom as you would like is because this isn’t SFIV. People in the US especially aren’t taking this game as seriously because it’s easier to be good with easier characters than it was in SFIV. When Wolverine can kill people just by chinging the XF why spend time learning people that actually require work and have more open ended play styles?

That is why you won’t see a lot out of the more technical characters until the Japanese get an arcade release of this game or maybe at least another year or 2 from now from the US. ** We just don’t advance technologies in fighting games as quickly as the Japanese with a strong arcade scene do. **IIRC it was the Japanese that discovered the DHC glitch and Desk had to spend a week just figuring it out why it worked before he could release to the public an official announcement on what he found.

A real example is when it comes to X-23. Most of the stuff that people do with her in tournaments is like very rudimentary stuff that like any old player can do and some of her other strong but basic aspects people have yet to use regularly in tourneys. Then on top of that she has a bunch of advanced techniques that literally myself and one other person have put together and regularly use in tournament matches. Which I’m sure once a Japanese player gets a hold of her there’s definitely going to be some things that the people in the X-23 forums didn’t even think about. In the X-23 tutorial video series that just got released most of the info that’s in there is stuff a few people and myself came up with and most of it is stuff that no one cares to use in tournaments as of yet.

The US in general is a scene that tends to play by “win with whatever wins the quickest with the least knowledge or execution requirements” and only changes when the Japanese show what can be done with experimentation.


#8

@ Cheech, Akuma’s vortex falls under mixup strategies and that’s an area you can keep refining as much as you want. It’s the same with Doom, we’ve already learned most of what there is to know and now all we’re doing is refining that knowledge and discovering different ways to use and apply it.

I don’t think you’ve read my first post quite clearly. I stated that as far as technology goes, there are some areas we will continue to see new things. Predictable areas such as: mixup strategies, combos, assist usage/application/strat/options, matchup strategies, team composition, and etc. But in terms of discovering something revolutionary and game breaking for Doom at this stage… well let’s just wait and see, but the chances of that happening are very minimal.

I’d just like to say many people discovered Dash-Cancelling within the first two weeks of MvC3’s release and yet (today, 5 months later) still haven’t found a sure way of using it safely instead of on anticipation to an advance guard other than Clockw0rk’s hitconfirmable :s: into footdive. At the beginning, the first 3 months perhaps of MvC3, I would’ve definitely said “wow this character has near unlimited potential”, but now I can’t really say that. We’ve hit a wall, and it’s freaking huge.

Edit: I’d disagree with you putting the Japanese in a pedestal in MvC3’s case. Let’s just say the arcade scene for Marvel in Japan isn’t very big compared to other fighting games so that possibility is out. (MvC3 won’t sell well in Japan so that isn’t even a viable option for producers as far as arcade goes) I am also pretty sure there is NO Doom user comparable to Clockw0rk right now in the world. (I said it) America has been playing MvC3 to death these past months, and it’s safe to say we’d uncover something about Doom before Japan considering how largely popular he is in the states.


#9

Well the whole point of finding something game breaking with a character is they have to be broken out from the get go. Especially with newer games where they make everything easy to pick up and do it’s usually the guy with the derpiest shit that has the easiest time running things until serious technologies come about for the rest. Usually the stupidest stuff about a character is stuff that you can easily see. If you’re looking for something that’s game breaking out of Doom you’re looking at the wrong character because it’s been pretty evident since the game came out that he was designed (basically on purpose) to not be on scary on point as say Dante/Magneto/Wolveirne etc. If he did there’d be no reason to pick anybody other than Doom because his basic aspects would be better than everyone else’s and then on top of that he would also have the game’s best assortment of assists with all 3 completely viable assists.

Either way he still has a lot of room for general improvement that people need to spend more work putting together. At this point it’d have to take something really crazy to put him up there with the likes of the biggest boys but just because a character is toppest of the tier doesn’t mean that someone can’t find something technologically that puts Doom up there later on. It’s just on a basic mechanics standpoint there’s more threatening characters and if that’s what you’re worried about then you don’t really have to worry about that because…Doom’s basics will never be as stupid as the basics of the other high tiers.

On the Japanese note…the block string thing that Clockwork is trying to get down he got the idea from watching a Japanese player play.

When it comes to history it’s always been the Japanese in most games that show people what other characters can do. Back during the 2k2/2k3 era of 3S Americans had no idea Urien could set up unblockables or charge partition his normals and speicals to do near 100 percent stun combos on most of the cast until Tokido came and showed people by destroying J.Wong with him. In SFIV most of the advanced stuff that people use with Viper is stuff the Japanese figured out or we might have figured out but they ended up refining any way. Even when it comes to MVC3, Tokido was the first player to use a Phoenix team that based itself on spending meter judiciously and burning XF early. Something US players dared not to do before with a Phoenix team and deemed risky/scrubby. Which is why Tokido is showing us up in the game now. Like a true Japanese he’s not afraid to innovate and take risks and show people what you can really do if you just take a different approach.

MVC3 not selling well in Japan is also a misconception if you take in account it’s ability to make money at an arcade with a new version. Although Marvel isn’t as popular there as it is in the US it’s still popular enough and they have console setups at popular arcades for the game where people regularly practice. If top SFIV players like Tokido, Nemo and Daigo are committed to taking the game seriously you can expect an arcade release with extra characters (just like with SFIV AE) could be a viable way to make money for arcades and get the Japanese competitive at the game at a level that we will have to follow.

**The only reason there is no Doom player comparable to Clockwork ATM (which is arguable considering the Japanese always have some underground guy that comes out doing crazy shit all of a sudden) is because the Japanese don’t have an arcade scene for the game. The arcade is the most accessible way for the top players to play at tournaments since several of them don’t even have consoles at their houses. The console environment in general doesn’t allow for the cohesion and competitiveness of a fighting game scene where you can get off work and fight against a bunch of people who can and will kick your ass in a game. It’s that ability to go pretty much anytime of the day or night and find people cracking out the nerdiest little shit in an arcade and generally just fight strong people over and over again day in and day out in Japan that keeps them on top. **

Just because the Japanese didn’t put their all into MVC2 means that MVC3 is the US’s game also. They have proven they’re already ahead of us even without an arcade scene which is horrifically sad. The best part is it’s literally one player that’s above the entire scene of the US.

**In general when it comes to the states Doom is popular because of his assists and if anything it’s actually hilarious that he isn’t being used more. **US Doom’s outside of those that specialize in him are pretty much all Noel Brown style Dooms that just run his assists and then go “well…um…PLASMA BEEAAM” when he’s out on point by himself. Akuma sees far more use as an assist than Doom in the US because Akuma + Wolverine is so dirt easy to use. Clockwork is literally one of the only 2 top players that uses any of his higher level techniques in big tournaments. This is considering Clockwork’s overall technology with Doom is hindered by the fact that he must save meter for the red head.


#10

I disagree, but I think I might be confused as to what you consider to be “new technology”. Within the past couple weeks, sjohnst2 has posted 2 corner carry combos that are actually usuable and damaging (to my knowledge, there was only 1 corner carry combo until then and it only did around 500k damage before hyper and it was EXTREMELY difficult to do - maybe even character specific). I would not exclude that from counting as new technology seeing as it fixes a very specific problem Doom had up until that point: most of his damage came from corner combos and if you couldn’t get to a corner, you lost over 25% of your damage potential. Additionally, I don’t understand why character specific technology doesn’t count as technology either. New ways of killing specific characters, especially problematic ones like Phoenix, is still technology.

As far as I know, I have yet to see any player utilize what DevilJin posted about cancelling a tri-jump/box-jump j.:m: into another j.:m:, c.:l: after the first hit to set-up nasty 50/50’s. I’ve hadn’t even considered doing that, nor do I remember reading about it in any of our threads.

I posted a mix-up vs. any incoming characters a couple days ago that I have not seen used by any other Doom player nor talked about on SRK (I was specifically posting about what I do against Phoenix, but it works against anyone).

Point is, there’s been plenty of technology posted in the past month (including the hit-confirm thing that Clockwork is trying to figure out, I’ve listed 4 different pieces of technology discussed on SRK), but people just aren’t noticing or they exclude it from counting it as “technology” for one reason or another.


#11

could anyone care to list the Doom tech that we’ve found out so far? I’ve only become aware of the hit-confirm thing clockwork’s been working on from you guys discussing it in this here thread.

I kind of agree with the OP that it seems likely that no new Doom-specific tech is gonna be uncovered, but I don’t think new tech is what we need to work on-- it’s strategies. not necessarily tech, but more like solid strategies that can cater to his strong points (imho clockwork’s only begun to scratch the surface of what to do with Doom’s dash-cancelling through pushblock stuff). someone on here noted that SFIV Gouki’s vortex game took a year to develop-- it changed the way people played the character and overall it made the character even scarier in the hands of a player like Tokido. it wasn’t new tech, like finding out day 1 stuff like FADC ultra or DHC glitch in marvel, but it was a strategy that relied on mixups and resets where the Gouki player had an overwhelming advantage and the opponent had no choice but to make a guess.

and that’s the kind of stuff people need to start figuring out with Doom. yeah he has flashy and damaging combos for a 1m health character, but go into tournament with your combo video stuff and you’re gonna get bodied. in order to make Doom scarier on point, he needs ways to open people up, get mixups, find ways to land his back throw more so you can combo off that. yeah when learning Doom you can take up to a week or so to learn the buktooth, foot dive corner loop, etc but how the hell are you gonna approach your opponent with Doom on point? footdive from midscreen and pray they don’t hit you out of it? not gonna work.


#12

I don’t have much to offer to this discussion as my Doom is probably the worst on my team,

but IIRC Seth Killian said on stream during some major that Dr. Doom has some hidden technology that people have not yet figured out. Hopefully there’s some potential in that?


#13

Meh…I don’t think he’ll ever come out with that. Eventually somebody will figure out what he was talking about any ways and I doubt whatever it is would instantly bring him up to like Mag/Wolvie levels on the tier list. He already has some of the game’s best assists so I’m not really too concerned about how good he is or what other super cheap shit we’ll find about him. Either way believing that no new tech is going to come from Doom is hilarious considering he’s one of the few characters in the game that has enough ability to cancel his attacks and movement to create such technology. It’s like saying you can’t build a house when there’s a bunch of tools and wood.

The main issue with Doom is that (like most every other character in the game at this rate) people aren’t using him to the level of creativity and effectiveness on point that they should be. Otherwise pick up wolverine and call your best friend while doing a special move. That’s easier to win tournaments with.

On the air M double or one hit thing that’s actually in the strategy guide for those that have it. It’s just the main thing I learned to do was add it with SJ backwards ADDF so that you can make your air M land ridiculously low to the ground where there’s can force them into a high low mix up even though you’re basically on the ground. I even made an entire 2 part video showing this off a while ago. You force the opponent into a mix up where they have to guess if they should stay standing for a longer period to avoid the double overhead or if they should switch their block to low real fast to avoid the whiff to c.L.

[media=youtube]KBJcKM9WVI0[/media]

The ideal way to set it up is so that the air M coming down from the SJ ADDF basically hits them in their feet if they’re standing or pretty much covers up their body if they’re crouching. I actually do it a bit too high in the air in the video when I have the other Doom in the corner except for like the very first SJ ADDF where the first hit of the M hits their feet if they’re standing. That way you can set up a high low at a height where there’s really no way to tell if he’s going to overhead you twice or only once because he’s literally on the ground but can still double overhead or overhead with the first hit of air M and then press M again to instantly cancel into c.L.

This forces the opponent to either block high for a long period of time or guess that you will cancel your M early and switch to low block earlier. If they switch to low block and you didn’t cancel the M they get hit and you can go for combo. People instinctively like to stand block for a long period of time until you come down after a super jump ADDF so you can first do the M whiff cancel to c.L to get them to block low more and then start raining the double overhead later. This is mainly because people know Doom’s up down visually isn’t as fast as Magneto’s and he can’t air L instant overhead smaller characters reliably like Mags. That’s why it’s good to take advantage of what they know and blow them up with what they don’t know which is that Doom has a super low to the ground double overhead or fake double overhead mix up.

I also recently found out that with a regular jump backwards ADDF L at close range you can overhead characters the size of Wesker (with tight timing) or characters about the size of Doom or bigger with easier timing with instant overhead tri jump L. On characters that get to about Wesker size or smaller it’s more reliable to go for the SJ ADDF M mix ups.


#14

I think Doom has lots of hidden tricks. We don’t need to pump out tech every 2 weeks, 2 feel like the game is making progression.


#15

lol I hate how people keep putting words in my mouth. I never said “no new tech is going to come from Doom.” This is actually the opposite of what I said. I also never stated that I even “cared” if we found something that’d put him up to the ranks of Mag and Wolvie. The only thing I said is that we’ve pretty much learned most of what Doom has to offer and now we’re at a point in refinement. As I stated before, the only areas you’ll see “new” technology in are: mixup strategies, combos, assist usage/application/strat/options, matchup strategies, team composition, and etc. (which is predictable since those areas have not been fully explored yet)

And explain to me what you’re trying to do in that vid. It looks like a simple tri-jump into j. :m:. I don’t see anything new or practical (air dash cancelling j. :s:).

@ Liquid, if you read my 2nd post then you’d realize you were misunderstanding me. I specifically said that those categories are the ONLY areas we will see growth in from now and it is not surprising. We’ve learned most of his tools and now we’re at a stage where we have to find out when and where to apply to that knowledge.


#16

To me saying that we’ve learned most of what Doom has to offer is basically the same as saying “I don’t think anything new or interesting is going to come out of Doom”. It’s just different wording for the same shit. Doom’s movement allows for a lot of tricks and capabilities that I’m sure none of us are even doing yet and it will take a while before it all gets put together.

To say that we’ve uncovered 90 percent of what Doom has to offer offensively is just not something you can say with truth. Nobody even uses 90 percent of his potential yet. Not even Clockwork. It’s obvious he has way too much potential in his tools and movement to say such.

The fact that you see what I’m doing in the video as nothing more than a tri jump M is exactly why the mix up is so good. It’s an unseeable double overhead or fake double overhead mix up. You force them to get used to blocking the fake one hit double overhead M by press M again to make the second hit of air M whiff then immediately cancel into c.L. When they get adjusted to that and force them to block low more often that’s when you can bring in the double overhead M again and blow them up for blocking low too long.


#17

lol before I respond, how is that the same shit? lol.

I looked at it again and now I can’t see how it’s practical. I’ll tell you what, if we find something new, something really new, and not in the areas I’ve mentioned then I’ll concede.


#18

What I’m saying basically is by your wording you’re basically saying that “if we learn Doom’s special moves and supers we know what Doom has to offer”. That’s literally what most of the people on this forum or even tourney players know about Doom. His specials and his supers. Except for a few people that post on this forum and play in tourneys and Clockwork no one else even does anything technical with Doom at all and even they still leave out a lot of things he can or eventually will be able to reliably do in tournaments.

** I’m done with that part of the conversation though. **We’ll just leave it at there’s definitely more to do with Doom and people need to be out there trying to do it. Which means I disagree with what you say and that’ll be that. He has way too much room for stuff to be put together and even the stuff that we know now pretty much every Doom still isn’t using in tourneys yet.

This thread is just a typical scrubby thread for people who think you just learn some special moves and one or 2 mix ups and that means the character is learned. There’s a lot of aspects to fully understanding and figuring out a character competitively for tournaments that we’re not discussing in this thread and still hasn’t been applied in tournaments for Doom specifically.

This thread won’t make any sense when we see Doom players applying new types of mix ups and movement techniques that we didn’t think of as of now. What we should be doing instead of making stupid threads like this is making threads that actually discuss Doom’s technologies and how to apply them. We obviously haven’t figured out Doom if you make this thread to begin with.


#19

I’ll revisit this topic in 2012 to see if my theory is right. And I’ll quote what I last said " …if we find something new, something really new, and not in the areas I’ve mentioned then I’ll concede." And don’t get me wrong, I’d love to be proven wrong. I WANT to be wrong. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

And again, since you keep taking what I say out of context, just stop. I know there WILL be continual growth with Doom that will contribute to different situations but in only a select amount of areas.


#20

Thanks for making another 09er style useless thread…

If you really wanted to be proven wrong you would actually do something about it then just make this thread. We’re trying to do stuff…what about you? Do you even play Doom?