Have you ever learned a counter-character for nothing?


#1

Let’s say you want to learn how to beat a really strong character like Blanka. Once you play against him and lose a bunch of times, you try to remember what you were getting hit by and then you go into training mode and try to find ways to counter that thing.

Problem is, it takes quite a bit of time before you’re convinced that you need to pay attention to any given character. CvS2 has so much character/groove variety. I mean, i actually remember spending time in training mode trying to find ways around Haohmaru’s s.MP and i don’t need to tell you how much of a non-entity he turned out to be.

Also, i’ve been playing CvS2 Guile since the game came out (minus a few months where my bidness team was A-Iori/Rolento/Ken-2) but it took like 2-3 years for me to become convinced that Guile was top tier. At first i thought he was good but that he was never going to overcome his signature weaknesses.

I’m sure some of the counter-character specialists like Viscant would tell you stories about learning a whole new character just to counter one character (N-Ryu? A-Rugal? S-Gief? Akuma? Athena?) only to have that character fade into obscurity.

There’s just so much shit in this game that it’s hard to spot the patterns - in terms of which characters are legitimate well-rounded threats and which characters are simply one-trick-ponies that die after you solve the one or two problems they present.

So how many of you know how to play some obscure character just for the sake countering some other obscure character that nobody plays anymore?

My Zangief will own up Nakoruru players! Though, CvS1 should get most of the blame for that.


#2

Never bothered to counter-char, I’ve always thought that’s weak.


#3

What if you play a P-Groove team as your main? Is it still weak to have a C-Groove team to use against A-Groove top tier? People who spend time learning 10 characters instead of 4 characters deserve props too.

I mean, these days i mostly play one team no matter what, but i’ve always respected Viscant’s crazy original counter teams.


#4

It’s cool enough to watch, especially in marvel with the random low-tier counter teams. But if you play p-groove, then PLAY p-groove. I’m not going to try and speak for anyone, but I feel that I don’t learn what I need to about winning with the characters I enjoy playing if I go in for that counter stuff.


#5

I think cvs2 has come to the point where you must have a really strong single-team mindset in order to win. Counter characters, pretty much by definition, aren’t as strong as your main characters. This is why I think such characters won’t get as far anymore. I think the best bet is to stick to a team and groove the whole time and work out their weaknesses. If your troubles against Cammy or Blanka are neverending, well then maybe you need to drop your R2 Dan for Sagat.

From my observations, most good players have around 1-2 backup characters for when things go wrong (except Combofiend, who’s special). Most of the time they switch only when they’re desperate; then they usually end up losing anyway. Honestly, I think switching a groove or character mid-match in cvs2 is one of the worst mistakes you can make because you must also switch your mindset. Only certain people have that ability (Ricky, Choi, Combofiend), and it’s definetly not something an intermediate would want to try.

Basically, I’m trying to say the tiers are a little more rigid than they were in years past. As a result, counter characters don’t work as good as they used to.


#6

i think you’re better off just learning to fight a bad match up than switching a character. when i’m countered, i just try to play as safe as possible and try not to give anything away. basically, i turtle my ass off until i get a chance to get some damage in.


#7

I think we’ve moved away from using specific counter characters. Instead, I think everyone is trying to learn solid characters, and which characters they counter.

What I mean is that I don’ play Hibiki because she has good match ups against Guile and Ken, but I’ve know that she does. I can move her to a different spot if I need that counter, but I’m only changing the roder of the team. That seems to be the method now, 3 solid characters where order can be changed when needed.


#8

yea, i think counter characters are slightly overrated. Even when it’s a counter situation in CvS2, it’s not so one-sided like ST imo. I think it’s more important to recognize the weaknesses in some match ups so you can play around them accordingly.


#9

I’ve never learned a character to counter another, so I can’t really relate to this. I only really started getting serious about this game until after RC’s started dominating, before that I just picked characters I thought looked awesome while losing. My character choices are still based purely on whim and personal taste, but I digress.

IMO learning counter characters is never for naught, because it teaches you stuff about the game you can apply elsewhere because of the similarities between characters. Not only that, but if you ever come across someone that plays obscure characters you’ll have a better idea of what’s in store.


#10

For a long time I was learning P-groove vega, as my counter to other P-groove vega centric teams, and it worked for a long time but I still couldn’t make it past there last characters with the rest of my P team (usually, cammy + sagat) So now basically I just have P-Vega as a fun casual character.

The wierd thing is though opposite of what zen fire says happened to me I really didn’t learn much more about vega from playing him myself as my vega is very rush down oriented I stay on top of my opponent using low jump and throw mixups to kick ass and I really haven’t played another vega like that.

So I don’t know I think really the moral to all that typing is that I learned basically nothing from my counter character experience and seemed to have improved more just by using my default c-groove based teams.


#11

I agree. Aside from the match ups like Blanka being able to RC ball all day with little Ryu can do about it, usually the character who doesn’t match up well still has a decent chance ; just at a disadvantage.

As for playing P groove, I have a backup C groove team that I learned just in case there is an A-groover who is doing a good job of exploiting the grooves weakness. (mainly no alpha counter). I’ve done what I can to cover it (either baiting activations or parrying them since most start off with a low).


#12

I know that I made half of SHGL pick up Mai just to stop my Chang that was on a rampage when the game first came out. That’s probably the best example for this particular question. Other than one or two guest appearances where I use him to beat a turtle Sagat, Chang isn’t even in the game anymore.

I also sat down for a few hours to learn Athena to stop Guile/Balrog players. A lot of CvS1 players gravitated towards them early on and Athena handles both of them mostly. I don’t think I’ve played a Balrog in at least 4 years, but I can probably still play that match.

And I think everyone sat down with S-Zangief at some point after RC came out. It made too much sense not to at least try once or twice. Theoretically that should do a lot better against RC elec, it just doesn’t actually work in practice. In the process I found out that S-Zangief actually does fine against Rugal, another character who isn’t in the game anymore.

–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com


#13

Even that match is that loopsided. Ryu can RUN and build meter (C-Ryu), and Reversal lvl2 any ball or Lvl3 :p. Also, st.HP stops ALMOST ALL blanka pokes :stuck_out_tongue:

Is a Reaaally bad match, but not impossible.

:wink:


#14

reversal lvl 1 works also.

But his lvl 3 fireball super doesn’t even do half life damage.
a lvl THREE!!!
Not worth it


#15

anyone who says counter charactering is useless is a fool

switching a character makes a huge difference in a match


#16

not always petey. only if you are actually good with that character. 2 players of equal skill and you really know that character, then yeah. otherwise, it’s not worth it. in marvel it’s a different story. think carlos and his a sak shennanigans and what happens to him.


#17

Lvl1 won’t work everytime, you need to block it a little late so blanka doesn’t bounce back as far…
well it’s either that or difference between a 1 frame reversal and a two frame reversal.

You can also block and jump after round house, put thats hard.


#18

talking about the specific match up between ryu and blanka seems off topic, but this is the perfect example of how the countermatch doesn’t really work.

if ryu is in c/n/a/s(for completeness) groove, he can roll/dodge to avoid rc balls.
if he’s in p/k he can parry/jd and punish.

All of them can stay out of the invincibility range and punish according (cr.mp, dp, etc), provided your opponent is stupid enough to spam rc balls from that far away.

cr.mp also stuffs blanka’s fp slide iirc.

kabukimono, i think one of the blocks (stand/crouching) gives less reel back distance, so reversal lvl1 super is possible (can’t remember if it’s standing or crouching block). It has something to do with the hitbox getting wider when a character is crouching or something…

either way, even though it’s still a bad match for ryu, I don’t see it as so one-sided that it’s impossible for ryu to win.


#19

what happen to him he lost becuase he counter picked? so by your logic your saying if he didnt counter pick he would of won?..no

using carlos as an example is meaningless considering the fact that you beat him because you were just better than him not becuase he was stupid and tried to counter pick

Counter picking is good but for some reason people think if you counter pick your automatically gonna win…no first of if both players are at the same level and you counter pick your still not gonna win everytime but its def more in your favor if you do


#20

that’s what i mean. counter picking doesn’t guarantee anything. you’re better off playing a character you play really well, than a counter character you aren’t all that great with. you just like to argue with me.