Help countering Captain America

captain-america

#1

(warning: extreme saltiness in this post)

For the life of me this matchup has frustrated me for more than a month now, and I’m joining a local tourney this Sunday and the number of Captain America’s I’m facing are increasing!

Anyway, let’s hope I can get all the details I can right here.

My main team is Amaterasu (B) - Felicia (B) - Doom (A)

The Captain Americas I face almost always have Spencer, Nova, or Wesker as their middle, and then Hawkeye or Taskmaster as their anchor (those arrow assists just complete him I swear). This means that basically with one bar, any of my characters (barring Doom) can be ToD’d.

Of course that won’t be a problem if I don’t get hit in the first place, right? Well this is where the problem lies.

For one thing these people know when NOT to Shield Slash, which then makes me wonder how the heck do I go about approaching this.

I concentrate on my strategy and try to get i-

CHARGING STAR

OK so I can block it, maybe go for the punish lat-

arrows

Oh fuck this man, footsie wars it is then.

OK we have dat f.H and s/c.M for Ammy, this is going to be-

CHARGING STAR

GOD DAMMIT STOP THAT

Oh wait I blocked it, let’s go for the puni-

HYPEEEEER etc

…=_=

Alright let’s try this again when he DOESN’T have meter…

Alright so I’m here, waiting for the right time to pull off a normal…

…! s.M GOGOG-

Cap c.L >>>>> my c.M

What the…? Seriously?

Urp, I’ll try superjumping next time then just approach down wit-

CHARGING STAR

THE GODDAMN SHIT MAN

But I’ve been using Plasma Beam assist, so as long as I cover myself with that, I’ll be pretty safe in my approach ri-

CHARGING STAR

It’s OK, Plasma Beam came o- WHAT THE CRAP HE PASSED ALL THE WAY THROUGH IT? Oh well at least he can’t combo after i-

arrows hit

THAT’S A HITCONFIRM ALL OF A SUDDEN?

Wait, finally I’m in melee range! Have to watch out for that c.L, maybe pushblock him if possible or something…

…block a c.L… spam my own c.L because it’s only 3 fra-

WHAT WHAT WHAT FRAME TRAP CRAP STOP DELAYING YOUR c.L RAPID FIRE

…never mind.

Urp, yes I finally caught him! Combo time!

…urp he didn’t die, oh well, let’s go for the wake up mixu-

CHARGING STAR

ASOIOWAEUHOIEAUGHOASAKJRHU#G)(&AEFHPIUASFOIEGF&Q#POIASNFPKUG$T^&(HPAEOUIHP#G)(&FGPIWENPSGHODUKSDIFGV$E^(W(&EPAUGOIYAWEGFPOI!!!

OK now I’m above him and he’s grounded… Ammy’s j.H is amazing as an anti-cro-

eats a c.L because apparently c.L >>>> j.H

COME ON MAN I DON’T GET IT!

OK so now he’s above me and I’m grounded instead… double jumping around, I gotta anticipate that j.dH…

OK, I blocked it! W-wait a minute…

…we’re back to the footsie frametraps… god please no STOP THE CROUCHING LIG-

Lose Streak: 19

OK I am seriously out of options. I can beat a lot of other top characters now, Wesker, Zero, Spencer, Viper, even Trish despite the weakness, Dormammu, Magneto, Doom, other Ammy… I can handle these characters quite well. In fact I’m VERY comfortable with the Wesker matchup.

So I really don’t get it… I’ve been facing good Captain Americas for more than a month now and I still can’t find a hole in their offense! Is my entire team just seriously Cap weak or what? There MUST be something I can do aside from waiting for them to screw up!

I tried killing their arrows assists already… and so they resort to the reverse-punish Charging Star (blocked)->Hyper S&S… but for some reason it’s like he’s not running out of meter at all god damn it. Not only that, if I try to punish the Hyper S&S I actually end up eating a Bionic Lancer that I couldn’t punish for some god damn reason that Spencer passes through my characters instead of dragging me with him.

Oh and did I mention that if I DO block the Charging Star/Hyper Charging Star while I’m off the ground, I can’t punish it? This is insane.

I am seeking help from the Captain America players here in finding the loopholes in his game plan…

…or am I really stuck being countered by this guy forever?

Admit it guys, Charging Star is insane. Hyper cancellable, comes out faster than any other move in the game (1 frame), has a few frames of invincibility at the start and has projectile/beam blocking capabilities… In fact when I played earlier, Caps where just throwing random Charging Stars midscreen AND FOR THE LIFE OF ME IT WAS WORKING FOR THEM.


#2

As a big time lurker and Cap-user I just had to chime in and say… You have posted the most hilarious text I’ve read for a long long time. Thank you :smiley:

As for Charging Star, it is NOT instant, NOT invincible and definitely NOT unpunishable. As Ammy you should be able to counter it in a multitude of ways. If they are too happy Charging Staring everything then just pull out your reflector-counter. It’s not much but might make them think twice about recklessly charging in. Better off blocking it of course. Heavy CS is definitely punishable (unless assisted) and if they love fishing for hypers, just block. The chip is not unholy by any means, just block it and make them think twice about fishing hypers. That will definitely put a dent in their meter. HCS/HS&S xx Bionic Lancer sounds weird but maybe you should try blocking it while standing?

Also… Captain America does not have rapid fire c.L. Even if he had, just push block them instead of trying to hit buttons in between something like a jab. As for arrows giving you a headache, you could also just super jump and hyper punish with Ammy’s elementals. Should be doable on reaction unless you’re already blocking. Sure it uses meter and such, but it will make them think twice about calling them. Not sure what you mean by not being able to punish after an aerial blocked CS/HCS.

I personally hate Ammy for being so small and “not giving a f***”-y which adds to the hilariousness of your post :smiley:


#3

This is actually where I get baited. For some reason everytime I input the push block I get a normal instead of a pushblock, and I get hit by the next c.L. This makes me scared of going near Cap everytime, and aside from this I always lose footsie wars because apparently according to experience, Captain’s leg during c.L doesn’t have a hurtbox (weirdly enough, as I said above where apparently Cap’s c.L beats out Ammy’s grounded M :/)

Well if all I can do is really drain their meter then that’s probably alright then…

I figured out that this is more of my stupidity as they usually SERIOUSLY WAIT for like the last 1 to 5 DHC-able frames of the hyper before cancelling into Bionic Lancer, and they almost make me push a button.

Invincible hypers everywhere oh god.

I know that Charging Star is not invincible, but about the thing being instant, I would seriously like to differ, because a reversal wake up Charging Star seems to always, and I mean always beat out my attempt to frame trap him with c.L mashing on wake up. Then from there Ammy dies. Again. and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again…

I’m trying my best to use the reflector counters… since Cap doesn’t have an instant overhead I might as well use the M Fireworks to counter everythi-

HYPEEEEEEEEEEER

FUCKING BULLSHIT ASUIHUIWYGFAGEWFAJSB

…I’ll get over it. I can do this. I can do this…

…ugh


#4

Why are you trying to frame trap them (or anyone) on wakeup? Wouldn’t it make more sense to actually make them block with a meaty tackle (s.M I think) or something? And no, Charging Star to my knowledge is not invincible at any point, except for projectile invincibility. If you actually meaty them with something and they try reversal CS’ing it they’ll be caught. Yes, even projectiles hit meaty will hit them because regular CS doesn’t have projectile invincibility from the first frame. Unless you’re confusing Charging Star with Stars and Stripes which actually is invincible (but that move is mostly horrendous to use).

Maybe you should give Cap a try so you see his weaknesses.


#5

Wow. Where is this again? Where I play there’s only two Caps I’m one of them :expressionless:

Cap’s c.L is amazing, but there’s no autofire on that thing. I’d say sait for a c.M or c.H and punish those if the string ends there. Cap’s S is kinda safe (-4)… if you have like godly reflexes (or mash your c.L) you should be able to get him (in theory).

Also… he’s a pretty good battery, but his assists are kinda crappy. Why not snap Hawkeye/Task/Doom or whoever they’re using to make him safer?


#6

To all you Captain America users…yeah, i hate you guys. You and your all-purpose single answer to everything.

Enemy is rushing you down? Charging Star.

Keep away? Charging Star

Projectiles? Charging Star

Mix-up? Charging Star

Over-head? Charging Star

Its like that Pokemon youtube parody vid a while back, where its just an endless loop of two guys using magic carp splash attacks.

“Capt i choose you! Hit’em with a Charging star!”

“Thats it Capt, now to counter-attack with a Charging Star!”

“Pfffyt, capt, give this fool a Charging Star”

Salty? You’re damned right i am…

Wheels in huge package of salt and pours it on floor in thread

And no, its not iodized salt. Hope your thyroids grow into massive goiters.

Lets see you Charging Star your way out of THAT! :mad:

http://www.acsh.org/imgLib/20100218_saltshaker.jpg


#7

Charging Star will eventually solve cancer. =P

People hate me since i throw out CS’s like they’re Shoryukens. However, I do this mainly since I expect them to throw out a move, or I watch to see what they’ll try to attempt. 85% of the time, they don’t watch out for CS and get punished for it. The other 15% is when i lose thanks to overusing it, or going against people who know better. More or less, you’ll need a decent prediction ability or develop stronger defense experiences to deal with CS.

But here is some tricks to take down Cap:

  • If they shield slash in the air at point blank, that’s a free punish.

  • Throws are your friend vs. caps. All your characters are capable of converting to a combo from them.

  • CS is a physical attack. Given that, that also means that it’s possible to trade instead of taking the full damage from it.

  • CS has startup. That means that unless it’s a Hyper CS (active from frame 0), Cap can’t counter beams from wakeup.

  • Pushblock cr. M/H, not cr. L. If you pushblock the right normal, they’ll whiff the next one and usually don’t react properly on whiffs.

  • Since you’re ammy, once you get in pressure cap with blockstrings, then aim for her ultra quick overhead attack. According to you, cap Users love to use the cr. L frame trap, and this trick completely bypasses that. Most players won’t even think to cancel into a CS since they whiffed.

  • Practice defending against CSs in training mode. More or less, Cap is open to punish if you block it. That’s why they use an assist to cover him.

  • Also learn the CS ranges. For Cap to cover full screen, he has to blow an H CS into Hyper CS. Once again, this is very risky for Cap. Blocking does wonders.

  • You can also throw Cap during the recovery frames of CS.

  • Ammy’s counter also stops Cap cold. Use the version you think the player is going to throw out. Once you catch someone with it, they hold off on that tactic for a few moments.

  • Also given, the counter is one frame recovery i believe. Unless you attempt things at ultra close range, you should be able to turn it off the moment you see a Hyper Charging star.

  • Slow down hyper should buy you some extra time to move around and set up things.

  • While not high in damage, Ammy’s bead normals do a really good job of limiting Cap’s movement. Practice messing with those.

  • Felicia beats out Cap in pressure. Take advantage of her Delta kick and back it up with an assist. She’s supposed to be running around in the air anyhow.

  • Cap sucks defending against high/low mixups. Once you have a blockstring, call an assist and go to town.

  • Kitty helper can bail you out of a few nasty attacks. Use it to add to pressure strings.

  • Command Grab Cap so you can convert to a combo and setup a reset chance.

  • For Doom vs. Cap, it stacks pretty well in Cap’s favor.

    • If a Cap player predicts your movement, Shield Slash will prevent you from moving to Super Jump height for safety. It’s also highly likely he can convert a shield slash to a full combo.
    • Both of Doom’s level 1 Hypers are projectiles. Bad to use against cap.
  • However, all doom needs is a footdive. That stupid attack is a 90% guaranteed combo starter.

  • If you really get annoyed, block a CS, x-factor, then throw. Convert to a kill combo.

  • Doom’s airdash crossups are pretty good.

And aside from me, i can’t recall many players who use cap as anchor. Taking from that, it might be wise to snap another character in to stop whatever (aside from Cap) is making things hard for you. You won’t have to worry about a Cap assist much, unless that player has somehow mastered the Charging Star assist (which i highly doubt. That thing requires precise timing/prediction when to call cap out to properly counter projectiles).

Reasons why I know this:

  • I fight many Ammy players and fall to their tricks.
  • SoCal has a LOT of Dooms. I’ve eaten more footdives than i can count.
  • Felicias are starting to become more common, so I have a grasp of what they’re capable of (She has a lot of potential, thanks to nonstop resets/command grabs/air delta kick)

#8

Well I’ve solved my Cap problems since long ago now, so thanks for the inputs anyway guys, they’re actually pretty accurate (though obviously some don’t apply, as it’s pretty subjective depending on the Cap player)

So I’d like to comment on some things you guys said:

Probably the most underused high tier character, I swear. People underestimate her because of the mentality that she’s an inferior Wolverine. As a pointer to you guys, Felicia’s strength isn’t being a Wolverine, but being a Felicia; that is, she can combo off of Hard Knockdowns, throws, and anything she does within or end combos always puts her in a positional advantage. Oh and her footsie is a mid to full screen low instead of a crossup, so yeah. I’d actually like to post more, but this isn’t the Felicia board…

It’s hard because the Cap player I usually run into actually does so many c.L’s, trying to catch me off guard with a failed AG. But you’re right though; if I don’t even bother trying to pushblock an L, then I won’t fall to the repeated-L shenanigans thing. I’ve noticed that for quite a while now, thanks.

This is where I’m most baffled at; for some reason if I try to go for the IAD overhead, Cap c.L STILL hits Ammy 80% of the time for some goddamn reason.

Again, another reason to hate myself for not having a console at home @_@

I should seriously use this a LOT more. Since I see most Caps do CS->delay->HCS, I think the delay they put in between pretty much becomes a free throw punish which will also bypass beam assists backing up the Charging Star.

Trust me, it’s easier said than done. You can land the counter once and scare a tactic off from the opponent, yes, but the fact that Charging Star starts up faster than Fireworks is just a serious turn off; I even saw one time where I swear Ammy had her disc in front of her face already but I still ate a Charging Star to the face. God.

Gotta clarify on this one, since I’m quite positive that it isn’t (I keep getting punished by beam supers, letting go of the button while the super cinematic is coming up)

Another thing I have to use more. Since my new team has Ammy in the middle, I should use meter more recklessly for Veil of Mist rather than Okami Shuffle…

Oh you have no idea how happy I am with this. j.H and f.H is so amazing for keepaway. Also new Ammy shenanigans I’m trying to work in j.H->Weapon Change M->j.H

I got this pretty much down. I just have to look out for double jumps when close range though, it seems to screw me up too much

I guess the Cap players I play with are just ninja enough to just Charging Star their way out of my pressure :confused:

Kitty Helper bailed me out everything except Messatsu Gohadou, so yeah

You don’t say?


#9

Oh man…
I can relate to this topic.

There’s a guy around here nicknamed MdC_Doom who plays Cap America/Spencer/IronMan and man… I feel exactly like the topic creator… lol.

Everything that’s written in the OP seems to be the absolute truth.
hahah

When I play him, it all falls in the department of "Did I get Captain with a combo before he hits me with anything?"
If yes, then I win, If not… then I lose.

It’s simple as that

Very, very funny and entertaining read.


#10

I never surrender.


#11

Umm… Whut? It’s not like there is a player controlling how to block.


#12

^

To clarify, Cap is pretty limited when defending against high/low mixups. Strangely, I feel he has a better handle vs. left-right mixups due to his tools (st. L, CS, Cartwheel, Hypers)

The only real moves he has to deal with them is cartwheel, stars n stripes, and CS. However, these are pretty hard to time in between blockstrings. His slightly larger than average size makes him more likely to get hit by a wider variety of normals.

Usually a well placed assist takes out a cartwheel option. Star’s N Stripes requires correct inputs (again, proper assist placement stops that), and charging star has startup frames and can still be nailed by a physical hit.

If a Cap tries to chicken block, that’s a risky situation for them since it leaves them open for a throw.


#13

Seriously, that makes no sense at all. To defend against a highlow mixup is to guess whether they are going high or low (Magneto tridashing mixups) or to react to it (like the Novahead). If it is getting out of pressure then as you said, those are the best tools which are brilliant for getting out (especially stars and stripes which is a very underrated tool he has). Dunno why you are undervalue them as (as far as I know) no other character has a DP, ‘Invincible teleport’ and a very fast startup projectile canceller.

With what you said, that means every character except those below average sized (where I disagree with you on Cap being above average but not going into that) is rubbish against highlow mixups which is silly as it comes down to the player to block the right way. Also left/right mixups can be avoided through delayed advance guards if during pressure which every character has (unless you are talking about beam+teleport=charging star which I can understand but generally you shouldn’t be giving them the chance to do such things).

Not really trying to blag you off for everything you said as I agree with most of what you said, its just that comment stuck out and is just absolute rubbish as it is skill and guesswork of the player to avoid mixups, not the character itself.


#14

MyNameIsE I am having a hard time figuring out who you’re replying to? I am going through the thread and your messages don’t make much sense


#15

It’s at jtrgmr.


#16

Whoops. His posts weren’t showing up for me. Fixed. Sorry for the off-topic confusion


#17

Just lost to a captain america at a tournament, the guy actually picked him just to counter-act my playstyle. I don’t think i have to tell you how he won…

I was able to beat the other guys there i was hoping to, so i wasn’t too salty by that point. 3 wins & 2 losses ain’t bad.

Anyway, yeah…screw capt. Basically you have to treat him as if you’re fighting Hulk. Just like every hulk wants to get in your face and spam standing H’s & supers on reaction, a capt is just going to stand and wait for you to do something so they can use their cookie cutter move for stupid damage.


#18

Unfortunate truth, but it’s working for me so far; Charging Star is like a midscreen s.H from Hulk lolol


#19

Charging Star is not fully invincible…


#20

You’re putting him on a pedestal that really doesn’t exist. Cap can’t frame trap you EVER with Cr.L, as it’s -4 on block. Nothing and I mean nothing, is special about his Charging Star or Hyper Charging Star, the hyper you SHOULD worry about is Hyper Stars and Stripes as it has invincibility. Furthermore, you play Amaterasu, she really can challenge Cap, you just have to learn how to play your characters better. Also, Captain is susceptible to rush down, Felicia is a very good rush down character, and with the Cold Star assist she can have quite devastating mix ups. And Doctor Doom can be a very bad match for Captain America, if you’re patient. He can’t Hyper Stars and Stripes somebody who has flight.