help, i suck

makoto

#1

i don’t really have specific questions, but i’d really like to just spark random discussion that could HOPEFULLY lead to something useful.

where to start…

getting rushed down by ken: my big problem is “turning around momentum” or something. usually when i’m on offense, i can get damage with my eyes closed.
block low/watch for overheads/tech throws isn’t getting me very far. if i’m 70% sure that they will pause/throw or if i see a mk overhead, i’ll do wakeup karakusa and that usually ends a round if i’m lucky. it looks/feels kind of scrubby, but it works.
also, in a neutral position, do you play careful, waiting to counter a sweep/c.mk? ken people tend to turtle up on me, so i put myself in retarded situations that yell “PLEASE SHORYUKEN ME.” i don’t know…

fighting chun-ri: what kind of attitude do you have when fighting her? when i play against a chun-li that KNOWS the matchup, i feel completely shut down. if i play safe and try to mess around with footsies, i get raped. if i throw caution to the wind and run all up on her, i get raped. when i try to ACT like i’m rushing down, hoping that she’ll whiff some moves, she won’t do anything. i guess the bottom line is that i’m getting out-played.
on top of that, she has more options to counter post-hayate mixups. :sad: getting hit by c.jabXXsa2 hurts my soul. how do you switch your mixup choices up to compensate?

helluh-bored at work. sorry if this was a waste of your 2 minutes.


#2

my main issue w/ ken for a while was the constant barrage of c. lk x2 -> dash -> throw/more c.lk’s in the corner. His dash was really quick and used to screw me up. I have just learned to block all the c.lks and look for throws. I try to do that delayed tech now so I dont get supered for wiffing a throw. I also found its good to pop him in the face with Hayates. Once you develop and eye for blocked/missed sweeps and other things you just start to punish that shit automaticly. I think a lot of Ken players dont expect it and it makes em freeze up. heh…

Chun Li, I dunno. Never really been a “problem” to play her, just really annoying. I find Ken and Yun matches to be much faster paced and intense than the Chun Li matches. If feel like I can stay on the offensive more when fighting Chun Li which helps a lot. You probably want to throw her more than play footies. You really want to get that bitch on the ground to play the wake up game. Her c.jab is bullshit though. worse than jab dp imo. haha


#3

i know [’_’] has seen me play so it’s not for him just adding my two cents in.

i usually don’t have an issue fighting many characters. it’s just that you have to really capatalize in punishment situations against shotos… they whiff, they get hurt, they stop throwing out random moves = makoto wins. That’s just the way i see it. If they turtle up, makoto has the ability to trick him into doing what she wants. s.RH kicks ken in the face if you are in the “sweet spot” and he goes for a low poke. (That sweet spot is right at sweep distance.) Ken has a few options from his “sweet spot”:c. forward,c.roundhouse,and UOH. c. forward can be a sort of reverse mind game if you like to dash after those, try to get him to guess wrong on an inticipation and punish him. c.roundhouse can and NEEDS to be punished by a f.hayate. UOH can be countered by c.forward.

I probably haven’t said much at all…but other than those points i don’t see what else can be done besides blocking low and tech throws.

Chun li is a different story, I just think you have to do your best to take her away from what she wants to do, which is not an easy task to say the least. Against makoto, chun will more than likely mash on low jab , and throw out low forwards during a time that makoto would usually have advantage. 1. know your opponent and 2. DON’T GUESS when you don’t NEED TO. Otherwise do what you can to not run into her random pokes.

theory fighter at its greatest…who cares…but i’m interested in what others say.,


#4

Ken and chun are tied for my second worst matchups, lesser to yun of course. I’m not the greatest makoto player I think; I find that I can beat about a third of the ken and chun players I come across on my average day, maybe two thirds on a good day.

But anyway, I think that the best counter to an offensive ken is to maybe turtle up a bit for the first while, and try to punish low sweeps, c.mk and crossover sj.mk’s, just so he starts to play more conservatively. Once you have them playing defensively, probably by mid-round or round 2, then you should rush them down with pokes and c.HP’s, mixed up with dash-in throws, or karakusas if they are totally turtling. I think the best pokes are (1) when they are doing a typical crouching turtle, corner or mid-screen: c.mp/c.mk for block stun or whiff just in front of them (keep them distanced) and to punish their poking out of their turtle, (2) s.mk to keep them from jumping away (if it whiffs, they’ll try to punish with a low poke, which you can counter with a c.mp->mp hayate! it’s faster than it looks) , s.mp to keep them from jumping into you, (3) s.lk kara’ed into EX oroshi to punish the crouching turtle (and likewise c.lk->lp hayate or c.lk->SA I to punish the standing turtle). Do these enough and they will have no choice but to sit there and turtle, than you can dash-in throw or karakusa.

Wake-up I find is very limiting against ken, since you have to watch out for shoryukens. Usually I mix up my wake-up between a meaty s.mp, c.lk->lp hayate/SA I, s.lk kara’ed into EX oroshi or a karakusa combo, but ken can shoryu his way out of anything. If you find he shoryu’s a lot on wakeup, block on his wake-up and if he doesn’t shoryu, throw or c.lk combo. If you find he doesn’t shoryu on wake-up, play it by ear: stuff his wake-up if he likes to poke on wake-up, or karakusa if he likes to block.

O play somewhat similarly on chyns, except wake-up games. Since she has no shoryu, your options are a lot wider, minus the occasional EX spinning bird kick. When she has meter and the game is close, treat her wake-up as ken. I think chun is a lot more difficult in the corner though; once she gets you in the corner she can mix up her c.mk into SA II and her kara throw, so it’s even more important to turtle her up int he beginning so you switch her to defensive and try not to worry about these things.

EDIT: forgot to mention, I find ken punishes much more often, so avoid following c.lk and s.mp with hayates, unless you’re pretty confident they will hit or if they have no bar.


#5

Your ken defensive strategy sounds good. Blocking low takes away his short short as well as target combo. 2 of kens easiest hit confirms. If they abuse mk overhead parry it. The risk to reward ratio is pretty good on that and its just 2 hits. Take a uoh if they cant link off of it but dont take it if its going to kill your or put you in a cheese scenario. In those cases go for a parry. You should always try to take your opponents easiest moves away and make him go for his hard ones. For ken that would be c.mk and c.mp confirm super. Very tough to do and not every ken player can do it consistently. Adding a little pressure while hes going for his hard moves, almost gurantees a fuck up in due time. You should becareful when you tech throws because they can be baited and turned into combo super. Empty jump throw scenarios and air tech if necessary. This can be countered though so be careful when you try something like this. You could help the opponent on accident. Parrying kens low range moves like c.rh or especially c.mk varies from player to player. If ken has no meter that would be ok, but that wont happen often. I’d never try to parry those if he had a meter. Thats just me though. I think its too risky. Parrying those lows really depends on how well your opponent can hit confirm too. Test him out at first. Walk forward and block into his c.mk range. This baits the moves and tests his ability to hit confirm. If it looks like he cant do it that well, you may want to exploit that with a parry punish. ALWAY ALWAYS punish a wiffed low forward. It’ll take alot of range game away.

Some people may call this cheating but I do it anyway. When someone picks, ken I look at there joystick hand whenever they do c.mk or c.mp. You know like a quick glance out the corner of your eye. If they buffer it ALL the time chances are they can hit confirm pretty well but I would test them to make sure. Also keep your ears open for the piano. Its another sign of a person that can hit confirm and it has a very unique sound. Since your plaing on cab, its also possible to feel someone buffer. Another cheap trick. Some people play with a light touch and that trick wont work but thats why you glance at their hands. I think thats why when the japs play, they always play on those back 2 back cabs. America is notorious for looking at hands at SF.

haunts is a known makoto player. I’d listen to what he has to say. Evildictator also had some solid pointers. Try to watch some RANBATS and check out ARLIETH or SEXTARO play. Both have very solid makotos.


#6

yeahhhhh, i don’t think that i’ll resort to cheating.
head-to-head cabs for the win.
if i play you in a tourney, i’ll be sure to set up a “daigo/k.o.”(?) partition between us. :sweat:

this is officially the q[x_X]p-spam-thread. more poorly-thought-out questions/concepts coming soon! sitting at a desk for 10 hours, doing nothing, gets me crazy-hyped for stupid theory-fighter rambling.

i appreciate everybody’s 2 cents!


#7

down in houston we play on jap cabs…so we can’t cheat…haha.

But just watching a players’ style of play, a lot of those things can be figured out without cheating.


#8

I consider it as skill cheating or taking advantage of my surroundings. When you glance down to look at their hands, your not looking at the screen. Which means they can set you up for something. Its happend to me before. Espeically in a game like marvel but 3s is slow paced game most of the time. Alot of people do it in marvel because the first hit is so important. When or if i look down, ill keep my fingers over throw and block low. If i see the guy hands do a dash throw ill tech it. cheap! I’ve done it during tournament and I won a match because of it. I’m sure alot of people do it because someone taught it to me. That guy probably learned it from another person and that person learned it from another etc… I dont need it to play well but it makes for a nice ace up my sleeve. I’ve met people who can get around it so its not like its 100% bullet proof. Theres plenty of ways to get around it.

if someone did it to you and you lost because of it would you get mad? I wouldnt because i use it but im curious on what everyone else would do.


#9

i wouldn’t say anything, but i’d probably not be too happy about it.


#10

oh dude, i got name dropped in this thread. made my day.


#11

cr mp is ken’s hard hit confirm??? :confused:

As for the Ken match up its all about knowing your options and Ken’s options at any given time.

If you get put into the corner all you can really do is block low and late tech throws. You can gamble with wakeup cr short xx hayate/ex orochi or wakeup karakusa but that is fairly dependant on how you got knocked down in the first place. Generally these options are very dangerous(well even more so) if they didn’t have to dash up to get to you post knockdown.

When Ken has you in the corner he will probably stick with his short short mix-up and should/will rarely use any overhead because parried overhead = death for him *assuming you can do the 100%. Even if you can’t you can do the standard follow-up and put him in the corner with 95% stun leaving you with a good opportunity to stun him.

If you are good at late teching throws you can try to frustrate them into using an uoh. by turtling in the corner and teching most if not all their throws.

ehh i’ll post more about getting out of the corner later


#12

i’d feel inclined to choke a bitch then chop them in the face, then wonder why this isn’t listed in the tourney rules. i guess it IS a valid strategy… even if it is a little undignified in my eyes.
but ESPECIALLY with makoto, so many opportunities are built around guessing games… i don’t know, whatever.
i’ve heard people talk about counter strategies like wave their hands over the buttons, or mash on nothing. or even fake a move like a DP… but it all seems ridiculous.

i try to late-tech, but my reaction-time is too slow and i’m still working on learning precise throw ranges… usually even if i mess up, im content with eating a couple of throws, instead of being supered. i try to play the patient game, but against some people… (like hsien chang- the cause of my third-strike-depression and start of the thread)- he did some nasty shit, like tick, then stood (what seemed like) a PIXEL outside of throw range for a full second or so, until i whiffed, then dicked me… or teleport backdashes and blahblah.

when you late-tech, do you actually see the start of the throw animation come out then react to it?


#13

Also going against a character which a better throw range is irrelevant with late teching. Your not teching till you are actually grabbed. So you can hit lp+lk to the reaction of the startup of their throw or even better waiting till you are actually grabbed then tech.

As for the hand watching thing many big names do it (aren?t going to drop any names).

Hell you probably do it and don’t even know you do. Can any of you tell me you can’t on an American style cab against at least some players feel/sense them mashing a 360/720 with Hugo, or mashing a wakeup dp or super and decided to just sit their and block/parry/jump instead of throwing that meaty you were thinking about because of it.

But versus cabs > all


#14

You make it sound like there is a lot of time to tech… I guess it’s time to go practice.

I think that there’s a difference between Hugo shaking the cabinet with 720, or hearing somebody mashing their heart out, compared to actively peeking at somebody’s hands when they’re waking up or something. It’s probably not worth arguing over, since it’s one of those “unenforceable/undetectable” elements.

Use everything that’s given to you, play to win, etc etc- think otherwise and you’re branded as a scrub, right?


#15

If your watching out for a throw their is plenty of time to late tech,

The point i was trying to bring up is that even if you don’t watch hands you are probably atleast on occasion using outside factors (shit you don’t see on the screen) to determine what you are going to do. Which in essence is the same as watching someones hands. For better or worse as long as your playing on a non versus cab this shit will always be a part of the game.


#16

Sometimes you can use it to your advantage too. I like to wake-up SA I from time to time, when they start catching on you can shake the machine just before you wake-up, and karakusa them while they block ;p so if they can see your hands, it’s probably even more of a mix-up game.


#17

whoever knowingly watches your hands is a bitch. k thx bye~


#18

damn, that’s a pretty good idea. i personally try to cutback on using a wakeup super, but if it’s the final round, and my opponent and i know it’ll turn momentum the other way, i might just try to fake him out.


#19

something else i thought of against ken…at just about sweep range when he is knocked down makoto has several options. She can sweep him back down,kara-karakusa, or low roundhouse his WRONG anticipation of a kara-karakusa and don’t forget kara-ex oroshi <credit to arlieth for teaching me the badassness of the move.>

The only thing ken can do to you if you are at sweep range on his wake up is 1.super, 2. back dash, 3. block. Of course be careful for parries.

Reading your opponent is the most important part of her wake up game be patient and figure out which one of the options you have is best to use.


#20

it’s funny having a conversation on a forum when we talk in person at least weekly. :wgrin:

people are learning to reversal-super my sweeps. :wasted:

i’d much rather dash after a knockdown (regardless of whether or not they tech-roll) and pull a mixup at point-blank range. it feels like i have a lot more freedom than at sweep range. but i guess there ARE those circumstances where you can’t get up on them without putting yourself at a disadvantage. so, thanks!

again, i appreciate everybody’s input- even from the people that make me ashamed of being in a conversation discussing the merits of looking at the opponent’s hands. :wgrin: unless i don’t have a choice, i’m usually playing on versus city cabs or on console, so the whole thing isn’t an issue for me…

maybe i won’t suck by the time evo comes around.

late-tech-throwing is still helluh hard for me. i get all frozen up from paying attention to things like overheads and throw baits-- but i guess throw baits should be ignored, since i’m reacting to the animation and not them being in throw-range? :wasted:
that and i have the reaction-speed of a [insert a really slow animal].

unrelated: i realized ken’s c.mk is REALLY SLOW when you’re looking for it.