They are reading the comments and explaining their opinions
Here is the reason why BJ’s numbers are like they are:
Basically, he puts player skill into account on his tier list and doesn’t rate anything worse than 6-4 and unless it’s a blatantly bad MU it’s a 5-5. You know, all of the things you shouldn’t do in a tier list.
I’ve included all of the explanations for his MU numbers in the tier list discussion in the general section: USF4 Tier List Thread (updated October 2015)
I’m with Kelvin with the reasoning but I still think that match is fairly even. Everyone will have their own opinions though.
as for BJ, I dunno. I need more than just that bit. Player skill should always be at the top when talking tier lists. But BJ also never uses the knife outside of throwing it like every other Cody player. This also makes me wonder how often BJ uses the knife when he’s playing Kelvin and if the knife is even an included factor as a whole. Because I get the impression it’s just as ignored as it is when he plays Cody.
If you follow my link you’ll read several break downs of a few matches…
He specifically discussed the knife vs Dudley…
No one’s playing arcade mode against the cpu, so player skill is taken into account. Two very powerful players will usually end up 5-5 because their reads often overcomes slight disadvantages. Finally, a 6-4 denotes significant advantage since it’s hard to deviate past 5-5 with strong players. A different interpretation of a “tier list” (which is really just a match-up chart) doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
The numbers stand as I put them because my past experiences playing the match-ups have made me believe so.
Working on knifing more! I did a bit during WCW teams.
yea don’t mind me. I saw the post after I posted.
Tier charts shouldn’t take player skill into account. Because it’s supposed to be based entirely on two characters options in a match of EQUAL skill. It’s not “How does BJUnchained do vs Veloc1raptor in the Gouken match” it’s “How does Cody’s tools match up vs Gouken’s and what are his options?”
You add player skill in we need to start claiming Rufus is the best character in AE2012 because he had the best results.
Alioune and I have had discussions about this, he thinks placements and results matter EVEN LESS than I do in terms of indications of strengths.
If you are playing the matchup vs the opponent then you should be doing a tier list based on players. E.G. “BJ Unchained vs Snakeyez is a 5-5”
Adding in an uncalcuable piece of data that is subject to interpretation (Skill) removes all objectivity and scientific aspects of a tier list. Tier lists aren’t supposed to be ART.
P.S. if 6-4 denotes “significant advantage” what is the point of 7-3? Is that “Extreme advantage” then what is 8-2 and 9-1 and 10-0 are all of them “Unwinnable”? 6-4 is too much of a catchall these days. It’s lead to people saying things like “5.5-4.5” or “barely 5.5 but an advantage” i.e. “5.25”
6-4 = Advantage
7-3 = Significant Advantage
8-2 = Extremely significant advantage
9-1 = Near unwinnable
10-0 = Unwinnable.
That is how it used to work AFAIK. Ultradavid and I have discussed that 6-4s are used too much. Veserius and I also believe there are a lot more 7-3s than people admit.
My tier list reads like so. Ken vs. Cody is listed 5-5. Therefore, if I played 10 games withone I deem an equal/close skill level, I predict the score will average out to 5-5. If I fight against a Rufus player of similar skill level, then I predict the score average out 6-4. I don’t think any match-up will average out to 7-3.
Thanks for your perspective on tier lists. It’s quite interesting and certainly different from mine
I agree with your analyzations of how the matchups play, I just disagree with your numbers (slightly) and heavily disagree with bringing skill into the equation.
Human aspect yeah, things like ability to react to a situation, or condition an opponent. These are things that should be taken into account BUT should be considered equal when discussing matchups. You should take your experiences and then objectively analyze how both players played the match, where you falters and what your options were and how the opponent could have played better.
Objectivity should always be kept when discussing matchups. You lose objectivity there is no point to a MU chart because it’s just a personal experiences chart and that is of no value to anyone but yourself.
The point of each person getting to make their own match-up chart is to share their individual experiences. If you want hard, objective numbers, I believe you already have what you’re looking for: http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/sf4/character/cody/
You’re beating a dead horse and I don’t see the point in discussing this any further. Please feel free to ignore my input if it doesn’t fit your fancy!
I just said I agreed with your analysis of the tools and insight in regards to how to best play the matchups. Just not your way your way of denoting numbers into a matchup chart or the idea of assuming one player is more skilled than the other being how to analyze the objective ability to win when skills ARE equal. I asked james about it and he agreed.
I think your concept is an outlier from the standard.
Anyone else care to venture their own lists? I can’t decide on a lot of them, but here we go anyway: http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/sf4/share/?user=GroundedSF&char=34
Not gonna make an account on eventhubs so will just do it here. Always down to discuss anything as it isn’t set in stone and there are matches that I don’t have the best experiences in. (and I could possibly just be missing things.) But that’s the point of these things.
6-4 (Cody’s Favor)
5.5 - 4.5 (Slight Advantage)
4.5 - 5.5 (Slight Disadvantage)
4-6 (Opponent’s Favor)
I added the .5 for slight advantage/disadvantage as these matches can sway in either direction depending. To be a bit more detailed, lets start off with the advantages towards cody
Still good for Cody but T.Hawk now has a walkspeed buff, condor spire buff, and a special cancel normal in the form of cr.Mk. Cody can’t run forever first off. He can keep him at bay but the difference here compared to say Gief is that T.Hawk has normals to match. Now that he has a shotoish cr.mk that leads into a mixup on a clean hit, It’s a guessing game if the T.Hawk gets in your head. Then there’s ambiguous body splash on knockdown. He also has a DP to add on to his 360s just as an option if he so feels to use it. Knife helps just as with any grappler match. The usual punishes are still there. (unsafe dives blocked are MK ruffian, Ex ruffian and U2 with meter.) T.Hawk has a floaty jump so ideally you have time to set up HK ruffian even if he’s going for dive thanks to its active frames.
When you get the lead, Honda HAS to take risks to get it back. Lots of throwing rocks and fake rocks for Honda to do something. Now that EX headbutt is extremely punishable on block now, it’s a free MK ruffian and U2. (EX ruffian works also IIRC). Here’s another time knife helps keep your neutral on point and Cody’s defense like a wall. When you don’t have the life lead though, it’s a matter of throwing rocks or getting the knife to pressure him with a bit of chip to try and get it back. Focus non reversal butt splashes if they ever come (free lvl2 crumple and if it crosses up, dash.) if you don’t like focus, cr.MK is also an answer.
While she is definitely a better character, I still say Cody can give her trouble. You have options around fireballs just as she has options around rocks. Probably the biggest thing that stands out is Juri’s cr.MK. Low profile far reaching special cancel normal that’s also red focusable. This button will annoy anyone. I’m sure I need more experience but midscreen is where Cody wants this match. If she has you in the corner for her pressure things get a bit harder.
I still don’t like this match considering I have to play this a lot in south florida but It’s not a match Cody struggles in at all. He has tools to get the life lead and keep the life lead from bison. Rocks destroys a lot of Bison’s neutral when he has no meter because he’s either forced to guess. Take the possible chip or risk a jump in. His floaty jump is asked to be AA with any of Cody’s options. BJ pretty much stated the most obvious (blocked EX psycho leads to EX ruffian or U2, devil’s reverse gets beat by cr.MK, cr.MK stuffing the main normals.) This match also requires a lot of cr.lp buffered into MK ruffian to catch any of bison’s limbs sticking out or a scissors. It scores you a soft knockdown and your chance to start pressure. Here’s another match the knife does well in.
As for slight disadvantages
The biggest thing with this is getting through Tiger Shots. You’ll lose most of your life from just trying to get in. But once Cody’s in, Sagat struggles. Lots of walking and blocking. Rocks are an option but only from far and far mid range. Outside of that you’re better off blocking mid range and up close you can challenge with cr.mk. cr.MK also beats tiger knee if you have the reactions to see them in a string. Sometimes helps to pick up the knife just so you can get the better ranged s.mk. Cody doesn’t have too much of an answer to sagat’s s.MK but it’s possible to whiff punish with cr.MP. I have to check and see cr.MP with the knife as it’s another good mid poke due to his hurtbox being pushed back so far. But the problem with the normal is that he’s considered standing. Not winnable. Just tough getting in and staying in.
I remember seeing Perfect Legend talking about how Cody beats everything Yun can do. While that’s true, it’s still not a favorable match just because Cody gets knocked down and has no wakeup options. It’s not flat out bad but it is rough. Rocks are risky anywhere not full screen. You know Yun wants and will jump on you so you have to be ready and on point with AAs if it comes to it. Chances are you’re going to mess up and he’s in, does a combo, knocks you down, and the guessing begins. At that point it’s a matter of knowing Yun’s tools and how the player plays. Generally in matches like these where rocks are risky because they can either walk you down faster than you can throw, or because they have ways around rocks, I go for the knife just to see what they do. You lose special cancel normals to play footsies/whiff punishing. You still have a solid AA. Twins have low stun and you still get a decent amount of stun with the knife. (plus cr.LK>LP Upper>knife normal may not be much but helps for extra damage/stun)
Yang I wasn’t (and honestly) still not too sure where to put. He doesn’t dominate as badly as his brother because he doesn’t rely on divekicks as much. But he has a better ground game with footsies and he can walk Cody down with no problem. Plus he has a bunch of mixups and gimmicky setups that if you don’t know, will throw you off, reset you, and either stun or close to stunning you. But Cody’s ground game and normals aren’t a slouch either. Which is why I don’t think it’s relatively bad or slightly in Yang’s favor. I think it comes down to who knows the other character more along with better footsies/neutral game.
I know we briefly talked about this not too long ago and I believe it was comparing Cody to say Dudley on how they both do against grapplers. Since it’s’ been somewhat discussed I won’t go over it again since most of the points still stand. Cody can keep Gief at bay to some extent until he gets grabbed/knockdown/whatever. Then it’s a big fat good luck since all his reversal options either lose to a normal or get grabbed for free. Jumping out does no good because Lariat. Cody gets into the corner and you basically have to take risk to get out. (and more than likely you’ll get out and still take damage) Rocks/fake rocks help. Knife IMO definately helps. Keep your AA game on point and make sure to punish any EX green hand with U2 if you have the meter. (and if you don’t, cr.LK>MK ruffian.)
Akuma, Elf, and Rufus are pretty given on why they’re unfavorable. 2/3 have vortexes that revolve around crappy wakeup and delayed wakeup only helps so much. Rufus will annoy you with divekick pressure and hoping you crouch tech. All 3 leading to knockdowns you generally have to guess everytime. While Cody has some options out of the route of vortex the character goes for, it’s a risk and a matter of a hard guess.
I moved Rose and rolento up in favorable for Cody. Rose IMO is forced to play footsies with Cody before she can think about doing a normal>special because they can be punished with zonk in between the string. Unsafe drills lead to cr.lk>MK ruffian as the safest route. U2 can also be thrown in between norma>spark/drill. Rose backdash gets OSed by slide/MK ruffian/F+MK/U2 also. EX spiral I know loses to U2 but I don’t remember if slide also still works against buffed EX spiral. I just don’t it’s that great for Rose. She has to respect cody’s options whereas Cody doesn’t have to respect her options.
Rolento…lol. Rolento’s wakeup is probably worse than Cody’s wakeup and that’s saying a lot. It’s been awhile since i’ve done things against Rolento’s wakeup but if he does command flip and you have U2, go for it. EX wall jump is very bad. If he’s in the corner and he does it, you can HK Ruffian. midscreen just poke him with an air to air normal. This is pretty ground based seeing you both have great AA options. Rolento’s definitely more mobile but Cody doesn’t need to really go to Rolento. Biggest things to worry about if you’re throwing rocks mid screen will be slide (cr.HK) and U2 (which just like Cody’s U2, is 7 frame startup.)
again it’s something to talk about as everyone won’t agree. But just how I feel as of late on some of the not even matchups.
You don’t think ANY of Cody’s MUs are worse than 4-6? Also Ibuki 5-5?
The thing about Juri now that I think shifts it to even for sure is that previously you really only had to watch for crMP/crMK once you got to a certain position and she’d push herself out if she was pressuring you. farMP lets her stay in and gives her another button that covers a different position/angle/distance than the other two. Also she can pressure you while crouching now without giving up her LK fireball, and MK+HK Fuhajin gives crazy frame advantage +7 or MORE on block
All of her buffs hurt Cody’s previous midscreen advantage. 4F farLK is a nice “stop that” button when you don’t want to commit and a safe check if Cody is walking forward, plus it’s always been cancelable. farMP moves her forward safely has a good hitbox, anti airs, and is special cancelable (and does 80 damage). EX Dive kick is safe on block now making EX Dive Kick a threat in footsies, and she has 3 dif angles she can do it in. She now has 2 EX Fireballs that can’t be crouched. Anti air EX fireball does 20% more damage. closeLP gives her better pressure than she had before from a dash up or just during normal block strings, also a major damage boost. FarMP gives her a damage boost during footsies as she can convert mid screen meterless from fireballs easier due to forward movement.
I’d say the only important mid screen loss for her vs Cody was back jump dive kick loss means he can use his focus dash forward more often to gain more ground. Otherwise she got better mid screen and during footsies than before and it was pretty close previously.
I feel like the ONLY time you have advantage in the MU is when you got her in the corner AND are the one with momentum. That doesn’t sound like an overall advantaged mu. She is equal in every other position and much scarier if she has you on defense than if you have her on defense. Plus her EX Pinwheel buff means it wont trade anymore and it was never difficult to punish on block usually before due to EX Ruffian so the vacuum effect isn’t a big deal IMO. I think it’s 5-5 or in Juri’s favor slightly. Not majorly but SLIGHTLY in her favor. I wouldn’t be opposed to just calling it 5-5 though.
Let’s have your list then Eternal
Note, I think 7-3 is “Significant advantage” meaning still winnable still in the fight. I thought Sagat - Gief was 8-2 and Blanka - Hawk was close to a 9-1 in older versions. I prefer to use all of the numbers with equal distancing between them rather than weighting everything around 5-5 to 6-4 and anything 7-3 or beyond being considered nearly unwinnable in a fight between two equal skilled players. 6-4 is a slight advantage. 7-3 is where one character has a strong advantage over the other. 8-2 is where a significantly less skilled/expertised player could pull out a win vs someone who is much better simply because of the character choice. 9-1 is where luck is needed for any chance to win. 10-0 is unwinnable barring outside forces or pure luck.
Gouken (Might be only 5.5-4.5 now, not sure)
~5.5-4.5 (Cody adv)
Adon (might be 5-5 not sure, I think it’s slight adv.)
Dan (Might be 5.5-4.5 Cody adv, the lower hitbox on LK Danku really helped this MU for Dan more than any of Cody’s buffs)
E. Honda (Might be a 6-4. The EX Headbutt nerf helped Cody as did the badstone charging fix. However on the flip side, Honda now can keep up or pass Cody in damage with EX Hands and EX Oicho is throw invincible. Still, tough for Honda to get in and riskier for him to escape. Not sure if it’s 6-4 YET)
Ryu (The fact crMK - fireball is a true block string from farther and the buff to EX Fireball makes me want to say this is SLIGHTLY in Ryu’s favor given the fact those were some of themain things making Cody win, but I feel like the buff to LP Criminal Upper, F+HK airborne and the walk speed buff allow Cody to pressure better help offset it so I feel pretty comfortable calling it 5-5, though I believe Valle thinks it’s in Ryu’s favor.)
Dudley (Might turn into 4.5-5.5 in the future. ATM Pretty comfortable saying 5-5.)
Zangief (Might be 4.5-5.5)
Juri (Might be 4.5-5.5)
Makoto (Momentum MU more than anything. I think it will end up developing to be in Makoto’s favor due to her EX Fukiage resets and new low hit confirm options and ability to actually get some damage/momentum out of her 3F F+LP which she couldn’t in previous versions. ATM I feel comfortable saying 5-5 but it could end up being as bad as a 6-4 if more EX Fuki tech is utilized/found. I feel there is more stuff to be found with it and red focus for her.)
4.5-5.5 (opp adv)
Gen (4.5-5.5 Gen IMO, Gen still trouble for Cody on KD and has anti-dwu setups. Still hard to AA a good Gen who switch jump arcs as crossups (esp crane MK) beat all of Cody’s AAs, very close to even though)
Viper (4.5-5.5 Viper adv IMO. As long as Cody doesn’t rely too much on hard KD stuff and utilizes his OSes when he does. Still might be 4-6 Viper in the future. crMK buff helped deal with MP TK and IABurn kick stuff in neutral and wakeup as it’s safer now. Still tough. Her crMK buff gets A LOT of mileage in this MU and she can now play footsies better with Cody who outclassed her normals but struggled vs her specials previously.)
Hakan (4.5-5.5 Hakan’s damage increases, low hit confirm addition, improved stuff when not oiled, and crossup (though shitty) all hurt Cody in this MU. Knife sMP and crLP - MK Ruffian pretty much only things keeping this MU in check. Loss of throw invincibility on EX CU also hurt.)
Yang (Every option Cody has to fight Yang’s safe options is incredibly risky (except crLK) and/or often barely as rewarding as Yang’s safe offense. It’s still close but Yang pressures Cody better than Cody pressures Yang, and has better mixups/wakeup. Only time Cody is really at an advantage is if Yang is choosing to stand at about crLK/crMP/sMP range for Cody, but with Yang’s dive kick and having the 2nd overall fastest (and fastest forward) walk speed he dictates the spacing game a lot better than Cody does. Occasional badstones/crLP buffers/F+MPs/F+HKs are good to keep him from bossing you around. The farMP buff for Yang is helpful in this because it moves Yang forward when canceled and Yang’s crMK could be avoided+counter poked by farLK/MK and F+HP while farMP counters those normals fairly well.)
4-6 (opp adv)
Dhalsim (Borderline 3.5-6.5 IMO. Sim’s damage buffs and B+HP/B+MK buffs helped this MU though so did Cody’s walk speed buff. DWU helps Sim a lot more than Cody. Still I could see it becoming solid 4-6 with just some solid crMK footsie tech and anti-dwu tech. Even after Chin demolishes Sabin several times Sabin STILL thinks it’s one of Sim’s easiest matchups. And Sabin though Sim/Gief was 4-6 Gief in AE2012 he is known to really complain about Sim. FChamp has played (and lost) to Momochi several times over several versions and ranks it one of Sim’s best MUs though he hates EX Ruffian I know)
Ken (He has better mobility, better overall footsies as long as he is making you block, and very good frame traps. crMK - fireball is fightable but it’s more difficult to just react to raw fireball at specific ranges where he can make you block it. Escape tatsu still exists. His kara game is the best now that he has walks peed AND the farthest kara. He has anti-DWU setups that also beat normal wakeup and are crossup or nots approaching from the air so they beat Cody’s wakeup. The only real situation Cody holds an advantage is standing just outside of F+MK range and buffering crLP - MK Ruffian (can be difficult with Ken’s mobility) and the fact Cody does a fair bit more damage/stun than Ken in almost every situation. )
Evil Ryu (I think that this could use some exploring. Cody has answers to Evil Ryu’s crMK but I feel like people over emphasize that part of ERyu’s game and if ERyu is utilizing farMP/crMP/farHP/farMK it gets to be VERY hard. If Cody’s knife could do more damage in footsies I’d call this even because I feel like Cody’s knife can fight some of ERyu’s options, the problem is that you’re doing 40-80 damage in most situations and risking 300-500+being in the corner.)
Seth (Seth bleeds, but Seth also has better mixups and gets some good extended combos on Cody. It’s riskier now than it was before for Seth but it’s still solidly in his favor toolwise in terms of number of options and risk vs reward.)
Akuma (might be 3.5-6.5 depending on future anti-dwu tech being found/utilized. ATM solid 4-6 in Akuma’s favor. The sweep change allows Cody to use focus more which is pretty helpful in neutral. Akuma can still punish LP CU if it’s not perfectly spaced and when it’s perfectly spaced he can blow through crLK - LP CU with a DP because it’s never a true block string (and when it whiffs the first hit there is ~4F gap before tornado appears anyway.) the jump back fireball nerf is help ful for Cody as is Cody’s walk speed buff. Akuma can still hold his own in footsies and zone Cody well as well as keep up in damage and frame traps. However Akuma bleeds pretty hard having 17% less health than Cody, and more importantly 850STUN is quite easy for Cody to reach with 1 Combo and a single hit resulting in a low scaled stun. Combo. The U2 nerf hurt Cody in this MU though. DWU hurt Akuma as much as it helped him in this MU imo. Cody still can’t deal with teleports very well.)
3.5-6.5 (opp adv)
Rufus (Cody still hates Rufus’ dive kick game, Rufus gets more damage now in some situations with farMP - EX Galactic tornado combos. Rufus’ EX Messiah kick buff was pretty big in this MU and it’s very hard to safejump + OS low profile forcing you to block it which means without U1 stocked you’re going to have to deal with the post reversal mixup. The only thing that really helped at all in this MU was Rufus’ U1 damage nerf, Throw damage nerf, and Cody’s LP CU being -4F instead of -5F. Still a solid adv Rufus)
Cammy (I think this could develop back into a 3-7 depending on new dive kick setups as well as bug fixes. She has anti-DWU tech including anti DWU+Regular WU crossup or not setups and her back throw allows her to react and change setups potentially before leaving the ground once players get used to the timing. She still has her back throw - farMK - jLK unblockable and several others. Her main damage/stun went down but it is still quite high and she gets a bit more damage than before with her HK Spiral - EX FADC - sHP combos or if she chooses to go for Redfocus. If they fix her issue where her hooligan combination doesn’t go high enough to allow for her dive kick then she’ll be certainly a 3-7)
Ibuki (I think this could be a 3-7. People highly underrate Ibuki’s footsies which got A LOT better too. 3F crLP and now has normal forward walk speed and faster than normal backwards. Still has great command normals, still has great specials that chip and can lead to mixups. She doesn’t care about DWU at all with her kunai vs jLK setups. Her EX DP is better. Only conselation is that LP CU is no longer punishable by sMK at all ranges and F+HK will do well vs her crMP buffers.) the thing is you have to use your brain and you can’t JUST autopilot to win this as Ibuki, however that should be the case with any MU outside of an 8-2 or worse when it comes to players of equal skill/expertise (for what it’s worth, I think BJ is a MUCH better player than Whitegun in terms of adaptability, fundamentals, and general expertise and even then whitegun almost autopiloted to a win several times and would not stop doing the same things after BJ showed he knew how to fight it)
Yun (Opponent need to be using his target combo to sMP more and taking advantage of Yun’s buffed command throw range to really turn this into a 3-7)
Not really comfortable stating for sure but I think Poison is SLIGHT advantage for Poison. Rolento is SLIGHT advantage for Cody (Nemo actually thinks it’s about even but one of Rolento’s easier MUs of the 5-5s). Hugo I think is about even. Decapre feels slightly advantage Decapre. Elena I have no idea whatsoever she is too much of a mess.
I actually forgot about LK dan kick getting the increased lower hitbox. So yea can’t just slide out for free now. Then there’s the fact cl.HK is a command normal now so he can put pressure and frametraps on you now.
I’m also an idiot for not adding Vega in the 4.5-5.5 matchup since Cody does struggle against him even with the knife. LP Upper isn’t safe and free damage for Vega with a 4f cr.MP. j.HP is still silly although not unbeatable. (you can do a late b+MP but it’s risky. HK ruffian trades with it) Cody also suffers with having crappy options escaping barcelona grabs. cr.MK works sometimes but can still be hit by the slash. Zonk and EX zonk aren’t the greatest options either. The last few times I was playing the match I was testing out jumpback j.LP and sometimes it stopped him, other times i’d get grabbed, and then maybe 2-3 times with the knife the grab animation happened but I stopped him from grabbing me and I lost the knife.
Ken is just an annoyance. His vortex is still present along with the walkspeed buff and f+MP among other things.
if I had to put anything 3-7 for Cody right now i’d say Rufus and Yun.
Found this video earlier today and I thought it was pretty good. Shows a lot of different stuff for Cody. Credit goes to CrossCounta
was trying to find a setup against sagat since I miss Cody’s 2012 ex ruffian setup on him
ex ruffian > c.mk > cr.mp > jf.HK
not entirely foolproof, they can crouch it lol. sorta a risk for them to crouch it since they’re def within range to be crossed up. not sure if cody can be dp’d, too late and too lazy right now to test.
just something I thought I’d share, I’ve somewhat given up on set plays due to dwu but it’s always good to know it’s there.