"Hey man, you're guessing wrong!" Makoto's Tips and Tricks Thread



We already have a combo and movelist combo thread. But i think we can put makoto’s tips and tricks together.

UPDATE: 25.07.10
Ultra2 crossup

Abare Tosanami (Ultra2) 3 versions
You can choose the range of your ultra2 by holding any kick button before she hits the wall (LK = short range, MK = mid-range, HK (or no buttons) = full screen range). But you can use another method, maybe “finger-friendly” for some people:
short range: hold LK+MK+HK
mid-range: hold MK+HK
long range: hold HK (or no buttons)

Fast Hayate cancel:
QCF+LK*+LP: it cancel your hayate. You don’t need to do QCF+LK~**LP. If you use it in combo, note that you have to hold LK+LP for a millisecond, or it won’t cancel

Midscreen Focus Attack Crumple -> Abare Tosanami
Just wait a bit, and use MK version of Abare Tosanami (not full animation)

Increase range of Karakusa, without kara-karakusa
You can increase the range of your karakusa by a pixel, just by doing HCB F+HK.

kara-karakusa section is here: http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=233829

Ground crossup
Makoto can go through a knocked-down opponent with f+HK feint.

Focus Attack lvl2 (guarded) -> dash -> karakusa+LK
FA lvl2 -> dash, gives you +5 frames.
karakusa+LK has 7 frames startup. So, opponent has 2 frames to react. Most of the quickest move of the game has 3 frame startup. So, makoto will grab before mashing lights or throw, but not shoryuken, because it has throw-invulnerability frames.

Pre-jump Frame cancels (PJFC)
When you jump, before leaving the ground, you have 4 frame considered “in the air” (you can be hit, but not be thrown). EX oroshi and EX karakusa have invincibility (or armor) BUT can be thrown. Using PFJC for those moves if useful to avoid throw.

*PJFC EX oroshi: QCB U/B+PP
*PJFC EX karakusa: HCB U/B+KK

Backdash recovery cancel
You can cancel the recovery of makoto’s backdash with any special move. It’s useful when you avoid an attack and want to attack earlier.

discussion here: http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=228987&page=15

Mixup on wakup and post-Hayate mixup
refer to this thread: http://shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=236013

MP fukiage
This move is considered as airborn during the very first frames. You can use it to avoid some wakeup pressure. Ok, you get hit once, but, at least, you fly and can take distance with a backdash after it.


MK tsurugi crossup
With good timing, MK tsurugi can crossup. (I did the video in corner, but there are many setups).
Oh, in the video, I just show that it misses on crouching opponent, and makes whiff reversal


Option select

See this post:

Abare Tosanami (ultra2) crossup
Ultra2 can crossup. I wont search any more setup in detail, because that’s not that useful, compared to ultra1, but its funny.

  • makoto in corner: backthrow -> forwardjump -> MK abare (works on standing opponent, and some crouched opponents)
  • opponent in corner: backthrow -> straight jump -> MK abare (works on standing opponent, and some crouched opponents)
  • midscreen: backthrow -> dash*2 -> HK abare (hits some crouched opponent)
  • midscreen: backthrow -> dash*2 -> stLK (whiff) -> HK abare (hits crouched big characters)



Excellent thread, especially with all of the video reference.

As was said in the kara thread, make sure to PM a mod to get this stickied.


I feel kinda sad for using a tactic like this but using EX Orochi post Hayate can work if they’re conditioned to attacking or poking you.


So it’s better to use LP Hayate for combos, right ? Since you have the least chance to get punished by a DP or something.


It’s better to use mp or hp in combos whenever possible.


HP hayate is the best on hit (+2 or +3).
LP hayate is +0 on hit.


Can somebody explain this post hayate option select. You press mp -> hayate and buffer a dash that only comes out if mp whiffs. I’m not sure how you’d do that. << edit: Nvm, just saw that you link another mp, duh.

Also if anyone has any tips to get uppercut jump cancel U2, that would be great. Even finding the timing for j.cc with focus attach is hard!

Great resource OP. Will be refering back to it during all my training mode grinds. :slight_smile:


I thought mashing shoryu would beat Karakusa after a blocked lvl 2 focus, since shoryu is invincible on start up. Has anyone tested that it would beat shoryu? I know it beats anything that isn’t immune to throws, but I don’t think it beats shoryu…


Any tips on her instant air Tsuguri (I AT)? I see it mentioned in various threads but I haven’t found an explanation for the motion. I cant TK it like Cammy’s CS either. Any help is appreciated.


but shoryu comes out in 3 frames.

FAlvl2 -> dash = +5
LK karakusa = 7 frames startup

we have to check if the first 3 frames are throw immune. I’ll do that after work :wink:
And i’ll test FAlvl2 -> dash (+5) -> EX karakusa (5 frames startup) to see whats happening


Yeah, aren’t shoryu’s only throw invincible once the hitbox is in the air?


But they have full body invincibility for the first couple of frames, if I’m not mistaken. Ryu’s shoryu may have been gimped, since I’ve been trading with that shit all day, but I’m sure Ken, Sagat, and Cammy uppers still have full body invincibility for the first few frames.

But who knows… SFIV’s hitbox stuff is pretty wonky.



SPD beats cannon spike for example.

Though I don’t really know cammy’s cannon spike invic properties.


Gotta do it the manual way. Jump, QCB+K as fast as possible.


I’ve beaten it with a c.lk with Ken before. I think some of her cannon spikes are invulnerable til the active frames, then she’s hitable. The fact is, she’ll be invulnerable during those two frames when we’re waiting for our lk karakusa to be active. Since karakusa doesn’t have retarded gief range, I don’t think we’ll be able to hit her. But again, it just needs to be tested.

I know we had a similar discussion months ago, and someone posted a thread of Fuerte doing his random mexican food grab from his run against Ryu’s wake up jab DP, and it was grabbing him every time, despite the fact that his frame data suggests that he’s unthrowable through out the entire rising animation of the move.


Wow that ground crossup seems pretty sweet, I can’t wait to try it out.


More good info coming out for Makoto :slight_smile:

A couple things you might want to add are:
-Her Pre-Jump Frame Cancels, specifically for Ex/Karakusa and Ex/Oroshi to give them about 4 frames of throw invincibility.
-Her Back-dash recovery cancels that were being talked about in the Movelist/Combo thread here: http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=228987&p=8797126&viewfull=1#post8797126

They seem to fit better here than in any of the other threads so far.


What does this mean?


Wait, where did you get the PJFCs from?


4 frames of throw invincibility is overly optimistic. It’s easy to end up jumping before you trigger your special. You should at most count on 2, possibly 3, and play accordingly.

Maybe something to try right after you connect, or get hit, with something that you know will give you a small amount of frame disadvantage and that you’re too far away from really quick jabs. And you would pretty much have to rely on EX kara or oroshi in case they throw out a reaching attack instead. But I don’t know. I’m still trying to figure out proper use.