Honda tech not alot of people know about thread!

e-honda

#21

Hey, lots of good stuff here!
Just some quick stuff that I’ll edit/add to later(tomorrow most likely):

  • regarding buttslam pushing opponents, a friend(Greg Cowart, you might know him from team DSC) asked combofiend about it and his answer was that it’s supposed to work that way, otherwise it’tll be like honda had a flash kick and that’s not how it’s supposed to be. So it’s another case of “stuff working as intended” lol. My next suggestion would be to just fix stuff like reducing light buttslam pushback on block(first hit only) so if an opponent blocks the first hit then holds neutral the second hit won’t whiff, as it does now with 90% of the cast. This has been known for ages(2:46 mark):
Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_RUnmzXIbc#t=2m46s

  • regarding ex headbutt invincibility, yeah, there’s a landed frame where you can be thrown or any attack can outright beat it(most commonly divekicks but any attack can do it, really) and honda will be considered standing so he might take more punishment(like a full combo). That’s other fix I would do, so that at least Honda gets reset instead of just being a combo dummy. This is the dreaded 9th frame: [details=Spoiler]

[/details]

  • regarding standing medium kick, yes it’s an underrated move, on proximity it pushes the opponent away and from a distance is a nice anti air. Don’t be fooled by this pic:
Spoiler

http://gyazo.com/b1dd829fa7102181b10a17e667b0ac04.png

his hurtbox is not that tall at all, it actually ends a bit below the highest part of his elbow, like this:

Spoiler

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/956x538q90/7/smk.png

I double checked that it’s still the same as super using the Ono! app to hack the game and check the coordinates of the hurtbox there a long time ago(you can see my posts in the sf4 hacks thread). Same with far standing roundhouse, which is shown to be improved but it’s not. I’ve done the same for almost every other honda move and I have the results somewhere in my old laptop.

  • Actually I captured all of honda’s moves(as you can see in my old imageshack profile) because I was planning to do a hitbox thread(which I’m sure I’ve saved somewhere and IIRC it’s 65% done) but then my son was born, AE came out and I retired for good. Well, until now, lol.

#22

Whoa! Thanks for clearing so much up man! This is truly appreciated, a thousand thanks!
So s.MK and s.HK have always been back to their super version in AE2012! Then what will this hold for his latest s.HK hitbox changes in USF4… I wonder.

I myself had a thread on another forum that put the video files of the hitboxes to a gif format. I was planning to to make a thread about it here on srk once I had done all of Honda’s moves.
small part of what I have so far can be found here if you’re interested: http://blockstring.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=633

Also, congratulations with your son!


#23

discovered new tech last night… its a gimmick but i could see this actually working.

I have pretty much abandoned HHS FADC - oicho. waste of 2 meters and no one ever falls for it. most people jump back or dash back. But this may be a reason to utilize it again.

I didn’t have a ton of time to test this out last night but you can mix up with ultra. so HHS FADC - dash forward, ultra 1. i wasnt able to make it hit against jump back (comes out too soon and i dont think you can extend the buffer window any longer, will have to experiment more), but was able to make it catch backdashes.

it may be possible that i did not execute Ultra 1 on the earliest possible frame of the forward dash’s recovery, but at any rate when i switched to Cammy and dashed back on reaction i got hit… then the next time mashed backdash i was able to complete my back dash and block before u1 came out. something to keep in mind if they are expecting it.

to input, its quite easy. (charge db) HHS, fwd + focus, fwd, back, fwd, 3P

i believe this tech could also be useful against fireballs. if they throw 2 back to back you can now snag them from further distances because you have closed the space instead of gotten pushed back from the fireball. Also many people like to throw EX fireballs after they watched you focus the first fireball. Could very easily buffer this and look for a reaction with no meter loss.

input: (charge db) fwd + focus, fwd, back, fwd, 3P

I was wondering if it was possible to do fwd dash + headbutt but i dont think it is because the ultra’s input buffer is much larger but i will maybe give it a try tonight anyway. let me know how dumb you guys think this tech is.


#24

hhs->FADC on hit is +2 after a forward dash no matter which of the first 4 hand you cancel. So I only do fadc hands if I need the oki and it is on hit. Most of the time I do this when I am too far to follow up a random footsie hands. This is really good against good players since they know that on block fadc hands dash is -2 so they mostly all just press buttons. I will now either dash then jab buffer or dash and grab if I caught them once with the jab after dash. So there ya go it is viable again…


#25

I have seen Hooda and some other gods using Hands-Hands -> FADC Fwd + throw

I have played around with the tech I mentioned above… FADC Fwd through fireball U1… It works I just need to get my execution better. There are tons of times I would have hit it but fucked up the input. It doesn’t seem that hard actually just needs a little practice. I did manage to get it once on someone but it wasn’t through a fireball. They stuck out a button when I dashed forwards and it hit them.


#26

Honda can combo out of a counterhit far standing HP when it hits in its later active frames.
It works especially well against characters that have normals that decrease their vertical hurtbox (like a shoto c.mk or a slide).

An example of a setup and a combo is: (jump in), cl.mp (hit or blocked), far standing HP (counterhit), s.HK or simply when playing footsies against a shoto’s c.MK

Spoiler

http://img.acianetmedia.com/i/laeb.gif


#27

oh man i always chop cr MKs didnt realize you could follow up with a HK!!!


#28

Good honda must possess the following:

  1. How to play it safe without punishing by opponent attack.

  2. How to OS your opponent safely. (Pay attention on the opponent habit)

  3. Have a good croach lp into HHS (EX hhs is minor, as it is dangerous, you can do it in USF4)

  4. Have a good normals (You can see zangief, he just uses normal punish can block the ppl jump away) Honda has it, but few ppl use it.

  5. Have a good walk in orchit throw (once you walk close, you can pick it)

  6. How to punish the opponent in big damage safely

  7. Good neutral jump, Except for blocking ppl jumping in, you can use it to vs Seth, Abel, Zangief when they do big throw on you. It is dangerous when they know how to hit you down from the air.

  8. Walk close when you jump

  9. Know how to use jump back when you vs some characters like Adon, Rufus, Akuma

  10. Know how to use headbutt wisely.

  11. Good foot sites, When you walk into certain distance, you can just walk towards and then backwards without doing any normals or attack. You are waiting for your opponent to reaction first. (Safe mode) If they jump in, you do stand HP or Neutral jump HP. You can use Stand HK when they do other normals. You have read your opponent first.
    Some people complain why opponents can jump in attack easily, because they do the stand HK so early and do it with risk, you can do it while they are walking back or croaching on the ground. If they are walking in, you should use weak punch instead of it.

  12. Some opponents like to use dash forward, Focus attack or dash attack (like feilong, Yang, makoto etc), You should able to do the easy 2 hits combos like croach weak punch cancel into ex headbutt or Stand HP into Super(mike ross always does it) Firstly, you should stand into a place which the opponent cannot touch you and you cannot use HP or croach WP to touch them too.
    Once they do some normals or dashing in or doing its attack towards your side or pushing the focus, they will move into your attack area.
    Then, the HP will hit them and then into Super. Very easy.

You can learn the normals punch and kick skills from kusiro and learn the matchup skills from o wa re jp
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kusiro+sf4&sm=3

The stand weak punch is very strong for honda. You must make good use of it. (Make good use for that +2 frames). When opponent jump into your back and just land in the ground, you can use it to gain the control.
Easy and Good ways to make opponents stay on the ground.
Opponent is croaching:
You can use stand weak punch twice or tripe, if you like

  1. Stand weak punch (+2 frame on block) and then Fierce Punch (Jesus Chop) (Cannot jump away) (You can add a HHS after the chop)
    (You can use it to beat those character like to mash weak punch like boxer and ryu etc.
  2. Stand weak punch > Croach weak punch >HHS
  3. Stand weak punch > Croach weak punch> orchit throw
  4. Stand weak punch > Croach weak punch> medium sumo splash (Prevent opponent jump away)
  5. Stand weak punch > focus attack release> dash cancel > Stand weak punch…

As the opponents is in standing position, I suggest to do more stand weak punch to avoid them to jump away.
Jesus chop can jump away for +2 frame.
Opponent is standing:

  1. Stand weak punch > Stand fierce kick
  2. Stand weak punch > Croach weak punch >HHS
  3. Stand weak punch tripe times
  4. Stand weak punch >stand weak punch or croach weak punch> weak headbutt
  5. Stand weak punch > Stand weak punch > (When you see the opponent want to jump, you can do a neutral jump HP immediately)

When the above normals are done safely and perfect, you can throw the opponent easily.

Croach weak kick +2 frame> Stand weak punch+2 frame(avoid opponent jump away)> Croach weak punch(Frame trap)> Stand hard kick

Stand weak punch is very useful to beat dive kick and the match up with abel. Abel’s matchup need to use more neutral jump to beat its wheel kick. This matchup is same as vs boxer. It is spacing game. Stand weak punch can beat Rose Soul Spiral.
Jump back HK can beat his wheel kick and rufus’ Messiah Kick.
When yun, rufus, yang use dive kick into your back, you can jump away. It has negative frame on hit. You can do ultra 2 immediately
Weak orchit throw distance must be very clear. Once you walk in the distance, you can throw it.
Use focus attack or block to get close the distance for the attack instead of jumping in.
When they startup the fireballs, doing normal or backdash, you can use ex headbutt to beat them (Hit far range of opponent) (you must have good read like mike ross)
After you knock down the opponents, Croaching and then do an ex headbutt (safe choice)
After Super is hit confirmed > Fierce headbutt and then orchi throw. (at the back of opponents)
When opponents jump and hit by your netural jump, you can walk in do a weak orchit thorow
While both of the opponents stands very far, you may try to neutral jump> Front dash Front dash> HHS and then cancel into orchit throw
After EX HHS> Stand weak punch >… (prevent opponent jump away)
Use 4 buttons for tech throw especially vs ken. Cammy. cammy will hit your back and then stand hard punch to use frame trap to hit you,if u press croach button
Use focus attack front dash while opponent doing a jump hitting your back
When your jump in attack is blocked. You should sit down and wait for their uppercut or shoryuken
After sumo splash on block, you can do a neutral jump fierce or back dash.
Use jump back punch after you are knocked down or ambigous jump in attack (you may use focus attack front dash or back dash)
While opponents setup a safe jump, you should block the jump in attack first.
Headbutt is safe when the opponent is croaching. Headbutt is dangerous when the opponent is standing(They can jump back to punish you) (Fierce headbutt has high chances to punish on block) btw if they have charge such as guile flash kick you should becareful to do the headbutt.
Focus attack on block by opponent you can do a 3 frame throw immediately
When you face abel or zangief, you can do a neutral jump after a forward jump. It can prevent them catch you.
Abel was knocked down, You can forward and do a option select by pressing the throw before landing the ground and a stand weak punch after landing the ground. When abel is rolling, it will option select him by throwing him.
When you face a fireball player, you can do a ultra one immediately after the honda’s headbutt is blocked.
All the normal must confirm the hit, otherwise, the normal will cause whiff punishing. For eg, Ryu can use Foward hard punch to punish us easily.
When you are knocked down in the corner and oppnents croach in front of you, you can do a back dash and then orchit throw.
Back dash is safe when ryu do shoyuken in the corner.
RYU Air Hurricane Kick , you can press focus attack and then dash forward, (weak headbutt) If they do not know walk foward to punish you.
when you are knocked down by Ibuki, you can use back dash or focus front dash to cope with Ibuki’s Kunai. The back dash will eat her attack, but it does not cause you to eat her full combo.
Ex sumo splash can beat sagat stand fireball
Do not press tech throw when ryu, sakura jump in, you may eat his hurricane kick into ultra combo. You use ex or sumo splash to make yourself safe. For meatly sumo splash,just touch the opponents little, there is a distance which the opponent cannot punish you with 3 frames attack even sagat is standing. u can do a ultra or super or ex headbutt.
Use medium headbutt for low tiger fireball.
Only do medium headbutt while sagat is croaching.
Ambigous jump in. u can use back dash or jump back. u will not damage by the whole set of combo.
For focus attack, u can use it while they jump in calculate a distance which they cannot throw u. It is important to learn how to use it safe. Because you can link it to ultra. Seth jump loses to weak headbutt for the jump setup


Double jump: neutral jump hp or wp on block, then jump mk to hit the opponent back. or jump hp stand wp if the opponent is croaching, u can jump mk to hit the opponent back
Ultra 2 is very good for blanka and oni matchup, as they get close to you, you can catch them immediately.
Focus attack can use it to absorb blanka air backstep rolling ball. The air backstep rolling ball is unblockable during wakeup, You can use netural jump HP or headbutt to attack the wakeup air backstep rolling ball. It is because all the special attack can break the focus attack. When blanka does ultra 1, you can use medium sumo splash(Just for escape), Ex headbutt, Ultra 1 or jump back normal to punish it. If blanka likes to dash to your back and then do anti air roll, you must know how to do delay tech throw, ex headbutt to punish it.

It can absorb boxer dash straight punch into ultra 2. dudley machine gun blow etc. For guile matchup, u can refer to mike robertson gameplay. He walks into a good position and jump in hard punch when guile release sonic bomb. Use ex headbutt when guile do any punch or kick. Jump in mk to hit guile’s back after knock guile down, it is dangerous when it has auto correct ultra in USF4. Easy and practical. 3 ways to win this match.

Ryu matchup is easy

  1. attack mode: Walk in stand HK, stand HP. Jump in HP in medium far position. Only do neutral jump in medium far position, if he can get close to shoryuken cancel into ultra1 or ultra2.
    When you walk in, you will usually eat their fireball. Try to use focus attack or just block.
    Focus front dash forward his air hurriance kicks.

When ryu does not have one blue meter, you can walk in towards ryu and focus attack into orchit throw bravely. If he has one blue meter, you must be careful to eat his ex fireball into ultra. (Skillful ryu can do this easily).
If he does not have ultra, you are still use focus attack to walk in attack. As you see the damage of fireball is not too much.

Ryu Fireball 60 Ryu Ex Fireball 100 damage.
Tiger shot is 65 and ex tiger shot is 120
Akuma fire ball and light punch red fireball can use focus attack, All ex, ex red fireball, medium and hard punch fire ball cannot use focus attack to absorb it.

Becareful for ryu stand forward hard punch, this attack can hit you with 2 character distance, that is ryu will move forward for close to you. It can link to his heavy combos easily. cody also has this attack
You should becareful with it. Sometimes, ryu will use it to escape sumo splash after ryu do it fireball.
Startup 17 frames recover 18 frames 0 frame on block
Usually, they press the button first or use it to whiff punish your stand far HK only.
When you notice ryu do this move, you can use medium sumo splash or weak headbutt to reverse it. If you are standing, you can do a ex headbutt.
If you are walking towards him, you can press stand weak punch and then croach weak punch…(remember to pull your joystick to blocking, blocking is also an Option Selects)
When they do fireball, you should have a reaction to do fireball immediately.
You can practice it by vs Guoken, Deejay, and chun li fireball vs CPU first. Once you have the reaction, ryu fireball is low level.
Guile sonic bomb is very diffcult, unless guile is get very close to you.
When your jump in attack is blocked, you should sit down first and then block. If you do an attack, you will eat his shoryuken cancel into ultra 1.

  1. defensive mode
    Neutral jump, ex headbutt
    Stand HK or Stand WP to trap ryu when he jumps in, you can mix it with some headbutt in this matchup ( When they are croaching or walking forward)

All tiger knee can be punished by ultra 1 on block in next version except ex tiger knee.

Croach hard punch is useful to beat Chun Stand hard kick, Zangief Stand hard kick, Cammy stand hard kick. Barlog, Dudley stand hard punch etc. keep honda in croach jab distance. only honda can hit them and they cannot reverse to punish u.

Late weak sumo splash is very useful in viper burning kick. It can use to beat Claw flying Claw too. EX sumo splash is useful when Abel knock you down and rolling into your back. He wants you to lose the charge, but you still has download charge to EX sumo splash.


#29

Are you Akimo from Japan?


#30

With this latest hitbox viewer tool, I think we can finally check out our hitboxes legitimately. What Gutabo said about far MK is indeed right and now confirmed!

Spoiler

http://i.gyazo.com/158681ba571d73908c52a3bca8b48fbf.png

http://i.gyazo.com/a3e2416c97d44b919250cd3d14e4cd2e.png

Our current MK is nowhere near that bad.

Although, our current HK is also very different compared to the posted AE hitbox image:

Spoiler

http://i.gyazo.com/5c021802fa6dbbc23379491788ccc30b.png

http://i.gyazo.com/324d318ce0711408a72c4214990c0f11.png

Just to double check, but they seem pretty accurate to me:

http://i.imgur.com/ftnOsUR.png?1

http://i.imgur.com/Y6Loc4z.png?1


#31

I just saw this post, these are nice tips. And that anti-Seth tech is very appreciated, I always get mad when EX Headbutt loses to the divekick.

And these are so Zen. I love it

Why use MP Headbutt to beat low tiger shots though? Sagat can punish both MP and HP headbutts with kara SRK, so why not always use HP for more damage?


#32

Dudley’s s.HP is quite annoying for me to whiff punish from max range from time to time, you guys having the same issues?
(the hurtboxes during the recovery frame doesn’t represent the actual hurtboxes fyi, it’s still in beta but, s.MP does still whiff, though)

http://i.minus.com/ibzKLfhBXbgHQa.gif

MP headbutt goes over low tigershot from the very first frame and onwards. If you do HP headbutt from close/midscreen on reaction (see him crouching) to his low tigershot, you might get hit out of your HP headbutt since it only goes over low tigershots after 10 frames. Also, it’s generally not that easy to punish MP headbutt on block with kara tiger uppercut, but it is considerably easier to punish HP headbutt. If he fucks up in punishing the MP headbutt by doing nothing or just doing kara uppercut 1 frame too late, then it’s worth it for 10 dmg less compared to HP headbutt.


#33

its good to mix up between the two because sagat can punish wiht DPs / St HKs on reaction. if all of a sudden it comes slower he will time his punish diff


#34

here is a useful tactic i’ve employed since super sf4. the downward attack of sumo splash causes untechable knockdown if it is the only part of the move to hit (as in, 2 hits of ex splash can be quick risen). after this untechable knockdown “push” grounded opponent with whiff stand close mk. this sets up a crossup mk distance. following crossup mk (have a down charge), use d short into close standing mk link, buffering close stand mk into mk sumo splash which will cause the second part of the splash to crossup. on hit, the opponent is hard knockdowned again allowing the technique to be set up again. this “vortex” works on a lot of characters, maybe all, i have not tested. useful in the guile, boxer, dhalsim matchup, basically any match where the opponent has no mashable special to pop you between crossup mk and link or between d short stand mk link. try it out and let me know what you all think. i ve had a lot of success with this against guile players and the effect of having this done seems to frustrate them to other mistakes. given the usf4 system changes, i am uncertain as to its future usefulness. it can be started from the front with j rh, i believe, removing a window of counter attacking as a result of j rh superior blockstun over crossup mk.


#35

orchit throw>croach mk into mk sumo splash(hit the back) In the mid screen only
Anyway this move are not safe. You can try it vs boxer. It can beat their ex dash upper punch. After using normal throw or knock down opponents u can walk towards oppoents and them use neutral jump move forward to change side. No need to calculate the safe jump.


#36

i’m just suggesting this as a way to spice things up from the usual honda attack vectors. i wouldn’t say a person should use this constantly or build a game around it. in my experience, risky setups that can lead to big damage are a worthwhile gamble occasionally. they break up the staleness of long set play and force the opponent to reevaluate their personal “safe zones”’


#37

i have found more success using buttslams lately… these guys showed up at my local tournament who are really great players with other characters and got the craziest buttslam shit going. There are times to use it when it’s quite safe and it can be really really really annoying to the other player. basically the main 2 rules to keep in mind is DO NOT WHIFF and DO NOT HIT ON THE WAY UP. spacing it properly is so important. if there is an inkling that one of these rules might be broken DONT DO IT! it forces people to think that they have to commit to a focus or block and thats when you switch up and go oicho or just throw. you can actually get a really good mindgame going. i have been punished really hard for doing bad buttslams and took them out of my game completely. Certain characters it works better against than others (good against rufus horrible vs gief) this guy told me he started playing with honda using ONLY BUTTSLAM just to understand how effective it can be and the limitations of it, and then he decided “ok im going to start playing for real now” and incorporated the rest of the tech. pretty much in the past i just used it as a read on jump backs but that can be super risky and normally when id eat the most punish.


#38

I hope someone can make a video about buttslam. I saw bighawk97 had made a headbutt video. How to do it safe haha. I found all buttslams were punished by sagat. For eg. How to use setup a buttslam with a safe distance that they cannot punish us. useful defensive tech http://xianmsg.blogspot.sg/2014/01/tips-on-becoming-better-fighting-game.html?m=1


#39

Yes Sagat is a taller character

vs. Balrog as well I noticed this

it takes honda 1 extra frame of animation to get to the ground after he has been blocked. since the block stun is the same you are at 1 extra frame disadvantage. also since these 2 characters (also t hawk and gief but buttslams are free to command grab either way) i dont even think its possible to LK buttslam them and hit them on the head unless its wakeup without hitting them on the way up.


#40

LK/MK buttslams are also sometimes -3 on Vega